I went to a gun show last Saturday and saw a nickle 1908 Colt .25 on a table. It was priced at $1500, which is two or three times what it is worth. The price tag had a note on it that said something like, 'Includes Luftwaffe Certificate of Authorization". The one for the pistol wasn't visible but the vender had two others on display and for sale by themselves. I wanted to take pictures of them to post them to the group but photography isn't allowed at most shows these days. Anyhow, I smelled a rat. I've been enamored with WWII souvenirs and bric-a-brac since I was a kid and have seen many thousands of items and read about and seen many more in books and on the internet and I've never gotten the faintest hint or whiff of any such thing. The two he had were forms on suitably worn and creased paper, brown with age, and in a small seriffed font. They were not the same format but both had a place for the authorizing officer's name, the items, and the bearers name. The titles were something like, "The items listed are authorized to be in the possession of the bearer" I couldn't make out the items on them but one was signed by an American infantry captain one by a tanker 1st lieutenant. One also had an Aug 1945 date and 'Army of Occupation' under the officers signature. I tried to remember as much as I could about them because I knew I'd want to post to the group Sorry I couldn't remember more details. Anyone know anything about these. Sound fake to me but I'm trying to keep an open mind.
Hello Dave good spot I reckon fake as fake could be. Would the authorities allow the spoils of war to be ( assumed in the hands of a GI) signed off and taken back home by returning troops. I am very suspicious of that and would assume the Americans had strong laws on contraband particularly weapons. regards Clive
The Americans definitely gave certificates for weapon bring backs - there are a few examples over on the warrelics forum - an example grabbed at random below, I'm sure there are fakes out there too as they give some history Us Brits also did similar, the one I have (and a couple of others I've seen) allowed soldiers to bring back Japanese swords
If there were such laws they definitely were not enforced. I am not exaggerating when I say all the adults in my neighborhood in the fifties had a drawer full of them, including Lugers, Nambus and deactivated grenades from all countries. I remember playing army in the woods with a real Chauchat, which came from who knows where. We could barely lift it. If there were any certificates among the souvenirs me and my friends would have found them because we examined every square millimeter of these stashes many times. I guess they were just stuffed into duffle bags.
Dave I would just never trust unless you can have a real good look through. I suppose 21st fakery is all around us
No idea what proportion of stuff was documented and what was just chanced - if US gun laws were fairly relaxed back then it may have been just a mater of routine to ask permission and get it granted. I have a certificate from a British officer in Germany confirming a shotgun he has was bought in France, not sure if that meant he could bring it home or just that he can have it while in Germany.
Here's my 1908 Colt. It's exactly like the one the guy had with the Luftwaffe tag. My eyes widened when I saw the $1500 price. Sadly mine has no such provenance. Nickle held up better than the plastic grips to 50 years of ankle holster wear before it was put out to pasture. I was able to get 50 rounds of carbine ammo at the show. It's becoming a little scarce. This was the only box I saw all day. It is from Lake City arsenal in 1952. I'm guessing it was made for a NATO ally.
I could be wrong but I think it was routine to mail souvenir guns back from Europe to the US during the war with no documentation at all. I'm certain pistols were mailed from the US to service men overseas by family and friends. EDIT: Poking around the net I saw this article about a Sturmgewehr 44 that was mailed home to Iowa. Chesapeake Police seized a German assault rifle. Now they want to donate it.
In the Wehrmacht, service weapons were acquired privately. There were several reasons for this: First, there is the group of officers and equivalent ranks in the military (e.g., sergeants, Wehrmacht Beamte) who were considered so-called self-supporters and, in addition to their uniforms and items of daily use, purchased weapons and accessories themselves. Acquisition was encouraged by making favorable offers available from designated dealers. On the other hand there was the group of other members of the military units for whom no service weapon was available because of their position and function or also because of the geographical area of deployment. This includes members of the units who did not hold officer rank, as well as civilians working for the troops abroad. The requirements and the guidelines for the authorization of a private weapon seem to have been acted differently depending on the location. This can be seen from the certificates issued for private gun ownership: The documents were written informally and worded differently depending on the troop unit. This is, of course, a circumstance that makes it incredibly easy for counterfeiters, as there are no standard references. If the value of a weapon then increases due to such a certificate, a special "business interest" is awakened in certain people...... Outside the direct combat area, pistols were carried for self-protection, which could be acquired privately for the above-mentioned groups or were already in the possession of the bearer. These were civilian commercial pistols in the various common calibers of 6.35 mm and greater. It can be assumed that, in accordance with the instructions of the OKD, mostly pistols in 7.65 mm caliber were purchased. Pistols in 9 mm caliber are rarely found on certificates and in soldier's paybooks; these were provided by the Army for combat missions anyway. The procedure for acquiring a private pistol for service use: An informal application was made to the respective troop. This then issued a certificate for the acquisition of a weapon. With this certificate, the authorized person could go to a store of his choice or to a recommended dealer and purchase his pistol there. Recommended dealers also had weapons from occupied territories available for purchase at a low price. The purchased weapon was then entered in the paybook by the responsible office: this made it an official service weapon that counted toward the troop's inventory. The owner was issued a certificate confirming private ownership of the weapon. This extract from a paybook is just one of the countless variations: As a rough rule of thumb, one can say that a soldier's paybook has a certain informative value as far as authenticity is concerned - but there are also good forgeries in the meantime: The well-known downside of the supply-and-demand principle If in doubt - ask a professional!
