DFC & POW movement enquiry: Stalag Luft 6 to Stalag 357 F/Sgt F Ambrose

I have been following various threads with the forum and the information within has been invaluable so here goes my first post. My father a flight engineer with 97 Sqd became a POW in August 1942. He died when I was 10 only 12 years after the war and never spoke of his time as a POW to my mum. When she died we found one of two pieces of information that related to his internment and a service release book. We now have his service record and a report from the ICRC re his internment. Dulag, Stalag Luft 1, Stalag Luft 6 and Stalag 357. Can anyone help with any infomation on how he would have got from L6 to Stalag 357. Did they have transport or did they have to walk.

According to his release book he was awarded a DFC but to date I have been unable to find out any further information. I have been reading a thread on the archives at Kew and hope to brave it within the next day or so as am staying in my sons flat in London (was helping hubbie put up a cupboard and fell off the ladder so not allowed in the kitchen again without a risk assessment report!!!) so Kew here I come.

 

Hello.

If he was a Flt. Sgt he would have been awarded a DFM rather than a DFC. I have both books so bare with me and I'll check.

Andy

 

I have four Ambrose's:

Charles Thomas Ambrose DFM

Charles Francis Ambrose DFC

Henry Ambrose DFC and Bar

Peter Searle Ambrose DFC

 

Hello Noworries and welcome.

Do you have any dates for when he transferred camps? If it was late in the war then it is highly likely that he would have walked.

The March (1945) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Stalag Luft VI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Would this be your father?

97 Squadron Association - Gallery of Images

 

Hi Andy - thank you for replying. When parachuted out (belonged to caterpillar club) he was a f/sgt but according to his service records he was made up to a W/O in June 44 when he was a POW - is this possible. His service book records DFC and also another mention which I cannt read.

And yes Nicks it is my father with the pipe - I sent it to the Assoc in the hope the other airman would be identified but no luck at present. According to the Red Cross records he arrived at 357 about 16 July 44 but no idea when he left L6. We have a calendar he wrote of for 1943 not much on it but it did give us more idea of dates. Thank you for the other link.

Pam

 

Welcome to the forum noworries.

I've amended the title slightly to cover both queries. Hopefully it'll grab the right attention.

Best of luck with your research,
Diane


Thank you

 

So would he be Charles Francis Ambrose then?

I can't really help with the rank etc as I'm not an RAF 'expert'. I just happen to have a DFC and DFM book.

 

Pam,
Your father's aircraft was lost on a raid to Kassel out of Woodhall Spa when the aircraft crashed at Duisburg in the Ruhr valley which is west of the target. It is not known from the available information if the aircraft was on the outward leg or on the return leg.In any case the Ruhr was heavily defended and unfortunately the track of the aircraft would take it through the Ruhr valley unless a deviation was plotted to Kassel.

Your father and the Mid Upper Gunner, Sgt J D Garland, RAAF,were the sole suvivors.
On your father's release,the appropriate RAF authorities would have debriefed him and Sgt Garland in order to ascertain the facts regarding the loss of the aircraft and the circumstances relating to the loss of life among the crew.

Incidentally aircrew on capture were the responsibility of the Luftwaffe and after being rounded up were railed to the interrogation centre at Stuttgart,then transferred by rail and lorry to POW camps.In the last year of the war, Bomber Command aircrew ran the risk of being murdered by civilians or their escorts as the Germans felt the full might of Allied bombing. The exception to this was when the Third Reich was collapsing and the Germans were anxious to escape from the Russians, advancing from the east,Allied POWs were forced marched west to prevent them being liberated by the Russians.This was conducted from early 1945 in harsh winter conditions, in many cases without adequate rations and overnight shelter.The POW columns were also subject to attacks by Allied aircraft who mistook them for enemy columns, leading to POWs,some who had survived up to 5 years of captivity,losing their lives.Your father may have survived one of these forced marches.

A point on the commissioning of aircrew.When the war started the Air Ministry had the policy of thinking that with repect to their position and aspects of leadership,pilots and navigators would be the crew positions who would be commissioned.Even so, there were many NCO pilots and navigators manning Bomber Command squadrons.Performance and survival led to many of the NCOs being considered for commissions and it was common to find Sgt Pilots passing through the rank of Flight Sergeant, being considered for commisioning as early as a few operations as a skipper.Failing that, a NCO pilot and navigator surviving a tour 30 operations or early in the war,200 hours operational flying, would normally be earmarked for commissions.

Getting back to your father.His rank on capture was Sgt but as a POW he would progress through the ranks to Warrant Officer while in captivity,this rank being the ceiling.Officers below the rank of Ft Lt would automatically progress to the rank of Ft Lt.(I know of a Flight Sergeant pilot who had been intervieved for a commission but on his 6th operation,he had to land in Brittany,not sure where they were but short of petrol.He landed on an active Lufwaffe airfield and the aircraft was badly shot up,he saved his crew.He was commissioned in a POW camp and had to leave his crew to go to an officer's POW camp.He was liberated in 1945 as a Ft.Lt,just as yours was released in the rank of Warrant Officer.)

Regarding the award of the DFC,your father would have to have been commissioned to receive this award.The equivalent award for uncommissioned ranks would be the DFM.

Regarding your father's service record,you ought to contact RAF Records,now at RAF Cranwell.You will then be able to ascertain his entry to the RAF,his movements and postings together with the detail of his aircrew training.

 

From 97 Squadron Orbs.

906392 Sgt F.W.Ambrose F/E To 97 Sqn from 1654 CU 11.8.42

12/13 August 1942 Gardening in “Nectarine Area 1”

R5502H F/Sgt G.L.McKenna, Sgts F.W.Ambrose (F/Eng), D.W.Wallis, S.Lloyd, F/Sgt J.C.Wilkinson, Sgts J.D.Garland, G.Hincks. Up 0125 Down 0445. Planted veg in primary garden after pin-pointing on Juist and made run from there. Veg planted about 3 miles east of allotted position. Low cloud at 2,500’ and rain. Parachutes seen to open.


15/16 August 1942 Gardening in “Nectarine” Area

R5537B Sgts G.L.McKenna, F.W.Ambrose, D.W.Wallis, S.Lloyd, J.C.Wilkinson, J.D.Garland, G.Hincks. Up 0116 Down 0511. Veg planted in correct position in primary garden. 5/10ths cloud at 2,000’ clearing slightly over garden. Parachutes seen to open. A quiet trip.

Pam these two operations were mining operations, known as gardening. The mines themselves were referred to as vegetables. The parachutes seen to be opening were attached to the mines.


27/28 August 1942 Kassel

W4139V F/S G.L.McKenna, Sgts F.W.Ambrose, D.W.Wallis, S.Lloyd, F/Sgt J.Wilkinson, J.D.Garland, G.Hincks. Up 2115 – Missing from this operation.

 

Harry, David - Is he recorded receiving a medal that you know of? He doesn't seem to appear in either of my medal books.

Cheers
Andy

 

Drew's post outlines the policy of Bomber Command management of new crews, fresh out of CUs,soon to be named HCUs.Newcomers crews were given operations considered to be less harduous before they were blooded on air operations over German territory.

Even operations over France were countered as 1/2 an operation until there was a change of thought.

No 1664 CU was formed in 1942,centred at RAF Swinderby with a satellite nearby at RAF Wigsley.

 

Hello and welcome to the forum.

All I can add is......

Sgt. F W. Ambrose Held Stalag 357 pow No.1055.

 

So would he be Charles Francis Ambrose then?

I can't really help with the rank etc as I'm not an RAF 'expert'. I just happen to have a DFC and DFM book.

Thank you for looking - he was Frederick William so the mystery continues. Perhaps his service and releases book is incorrect.

 

It appears that he was shot down on his third operation with 97 Squadron. Unless he did a previous tour with another squadron before going to the CU I doubt that he would have received an award.

Incidentally he was in the same squadron as my father (but earlier) and in the same POW camps too so I am sure they must have rubbed shoulders.

 

He doesn't appear to be listed in either of my books-What is your source of info that he was awarded a DFC?

 

He doesn't appear to be listed in either of my books-What is your source of info that he was awarded a DFC?

The thread starter Noworries wrote..............

"According to his release book he was awarded a DFC but to date I have been unable to find out any further information."

 

Harry, David - Is he recorded receiving a medal that you know of? He doesn't seem to appear in either of my medal books.

Cheers
Andy

P.S. What does it say about my father, Walter Henry Layne DFC

and my uncle Charles Donald Andrewartha DFC?

 

Cheers David.

In that case - I'm sure someone has already mentioned it I would apply for his service records and contact the medals office.

Regards
Andy

 

I have just returned from NA Kew - wow what a place and everyone was so helpful just like all of you have been - thanks again. As I had not planned this visit and did not have the correct id I didnt expect to get a readers ticket but thought I would just visit. Thanks to a lovely man in the office upstairs they accepted a letter I had from the ICRC as proof of address and I got my ticket - if you dont try you dont know.. I ordered the file under WO344 which could possibly contain my fathers interrogation report and there it was. He was captured at Moers 28.8.42 was wounded and received treatment (no mention of the injury) Dulag Luft Oberjursel he was inerrogated "Yes special German engineering flier interrogated me on Lancaster aircraft. Solitary confinement for 12 days all windows closed and heat full on"
He states he left L6 July 44 Thorn nr Danzig July 44 Fallingbostal Hanover July 44.
He also stated "evaded the evacuation of Fallingbostel first pary by hiding out with w/o J Warren RCAF attempt sucessful"

As it appears he was one of the early groups to leave L6 and that he left in July and arrived at Fallinbostal in July would I be right in thinking he was one of lucky ones who went by transport?

On the question of his medals would it be ok to take a picture of his service book and also a pin of miniture medals (I am presuming they are his as they were with my mothers things) Perhaps someone could see something that I'm missing.

Can I also ask where the Nectarine area was