Does anyone know which Canadian units where stationed near Langsett ?

Regarding the DNA results, they have been uploaded to Ancestry and also to GED match, but as these DNA kits are handed out as presents for Christmas, birthdays and mothers day a lot of people do them but then do nothing more ! so unless a family member of the person i am looking for has taken the test and then linked it to a family tree - then yes it is a Impossible quest. It is also quite a sensitive subject with some family members - there are grandkids and great grandkids who are not yet aware of this family mystery - so hope my initial reluctance to just come straight out with this story will be understood. A few month ago our family history would have read "so and so" unknown wartime father, today (thanks to DNA) father is now probably a Scottish/Canadian soldier possibly stationed in or around Langsett, who probably attended the popular dances held at the Penistone Drill Hall, for me it would be nice to add "probably from such a name unit" and with that we will be happy and leave it at that. (unless something DNA linked appears in the future as people becoming interested in family history all the time especially during lockdown then who knows where that might lead)

 

Robert - we on this forum have been through similar scenarios several times and it can be difficult as you say from the point of view if anything is found then it could be a shock to someone to learn of an unknown family, so treading carefully is a watch word. I dont think it would be wise for anyone of the members to leave themselves open to criticism or worse, by posting details no one ever wanted to see the light of day, its a fine line

So what was the date of birth and was that in England or Scotland

DNA is still I think the best way, whenever that may occur, to answer your question. Maybe with lockdown still in progress people will find the time to continue completing family histories

Fingers crossed

TD

 

Thanks for the understanding - place of birth Yorkshire date of birth 8th Jan 46 so back track 9 month or so would be around the time Roosevelt died 12 April 45, i am aware that Americans were still in the South/West Yorkshire and Derbyshire area after that time and that newer recruits from overseass were still arriving in England in early 45 as well. we probably have more chance of winning the lottery 3 weeks in a row than identifying the alledged father, that was not the purpose of this post, we would be very happy if it was possible to narrow it down to a particular unit or two (or three or more).that were in the area, at least we have something to put in our family history book.

 

For me that changes the possibilities quite considerably. We would seem to need to move away from front line soldiers to possibly more wounded and hospitalised in UK, air related servicemen dealing with supply to the front and also bringing wounded and ex POW's back, MarkN's possibility that he was on leave and came back to Langsett during that time

The local history societies could perhaps explain what troops or more to the point, military establishments where still around there in April ish 1945, as mentioned I doubt many were doing frontline training at the time.

That probable conception date seems to open up a new can of worms

TD

 

I have recieved no replies back yet from local history in that area as yet, i belong to several societys and live not too far away from Langsett, but getting answers now for any queries before 1950's is proving very difficult, we are aware of several relationships during the war but all were English, pretty confident relation ship with possible Canadian was very brief (possibly one night)

 

Well that moves the goalposts rather significantly from your original post when you were after details of units in the area 12 months or so earlier.

Given that VE day was 8 May, are you sure they were still rotating training units through the area just a month earlier?

The RCAF bomber force was based not that far up the road and was still there in 1945.

 

Yes, it could be a very, very time consuming exercise trying to track this one down.

Which is why eliminating as many dead ends and false leads as possible is essential. Just imagine if someone had spent the last 24 hours combing through thousands of documents to find which units were training in the area prior to D-day to now find out it was a complete waste of time.

 

Just adding Newfoundland into the mix. Now part of Canada & DNA matches may show Newfoundlanders as Canadian, in WW2 it was a British Colony and its population served in both the British and Canadian services.

If you don't get many leads from local organisations, perhaps the local papers will have reports of any dances, events etc that took place.

 

I hope to access local newspaper archives (usualy on microfiche) when Libraries and Town Halls reopen - they do provide a lot of good Info usually

 

Just re read my original post and it was badly composed, certainly no intent to mis lead anyone, applogies offered !

 

I am informed that one source of Canadians in that area until Aug 1945 would be No. 6 Group RCAF - Wikipedia - not sure if this was mentioned before or not but it may help you in narrowing searches

TD

 

Thanks for that - good to know that they were still around as late as this, and a new avenue of research, much appreciated

 

Errr? Mentionned twice l think.

 

OK - thanks for that Mark

TD

 

I don't think anybody here would assume you were intentionaly trying to mislead.

My point was trying to highlight that until there is something more concrete to go on, you won't find that many willing volunteers sifting through millions of pages on your behalf. Concrete details are key. Regrettably, some concrete details such as names you are choosing (for good reason) to withold. You can see how giving the date of birth completely changed the direction.

I've written previously that a significant proportion of the Canadian war diaries are online and free to view. Just type Heritage Canadiana into search and you'll be offered plenty of links to peruse.

Going through them may be the only way to narrow down the possibilities. It's very labourious, but often that is what research is all about.

 

No problem.

I deliberately didn't give the title 6 Gp RCAF because there were plenty of other RCAF in England too. Mostly fighter. Didn't want to narrow down the hunt to an unnecessary blind alley.

However, now that the enquiry has shifted forward a year or so, 6 Gp RCAF must be a strong candidate for further consideration as the fighter squadrons will have moved onto the continent.

 

The link is welcome, i am active on Ancestry researching our family but also helping others on our local groups to research their families, when it comes to Military research i ask for help as it is "alien" to me, as someone who spends several hours every day (i am retired) researching i do appreciate the amount of effort others put in, this group as helped me and my family a great deal - so many thanks to everyone commenting on this and my previous posts, i still get replies to old posts which often sheds new light on old questions which i believed had run their course. I regret posting this in haste without considering the wording ! i had only very recently learned that Canadians were in this area so in view of the "topic" was quite excited and jumped in feet first..

 

Found this in a doctoral thesis ANGLO-CANADIAN WARTIME RELATIONS, 1939-1945: RAF BOMBER COMMAND AND NO. 6 (CANADIAN) GROUP from 1989.

Don't blame me for the formatting, it's a 2-second cut and paste from a pdf file.


Probably the most important social aspect of the RCAF presence in the UK was the interaction between RCAF personnel and civilian women. According to Collins, local women liked Canadians almost as much as they did the Americans. Canadian airmen attained this favoured status partly because they were an unknown quantity -a novelty of sorts.28 That many liaisons occurred between No. 6 Group's airmen and local women should come as no surprise. Airmen were away from their wives and sweethearts for years on end, and the boredom of service life was aggravated by the danger they faced while on operations. Local women, too, were often deprived of their menfolk. In her war memoirs, Jean Ellis, a Red Cross welfare officer, wrote that servicemen should not be condemned for seeking comfort on the ~~arest available shoulder. There was ''considerable criticism of philandering Canadian servicemen and undoubtedly many broken hearts and broken homes have resulted from their wanderings. But anyone who saw the awful tension under which they lived is not likely to judge them harshly.••29 Liaisons of this description frequently led to wartime marriages. By the end of 1946, the total number of Canadian war brides from Britain was 44,886 of whom 18 per cent were married to airmen.30 Official policy dictated that Canadian ground crew required six months' service before they could marry, but this restriction did not apply when they were serving overseas. Even so, spur-of-the-moment marriages were not encouraged. To arrest the flood, the bride needed to have a certificate of good character and the groom had to sign a form attesting to hia, as yet, unmarried status.31

Interaction between RCAF personnel and local civilian women also had a dark side to it. With regard to prostitution, the presence of the Canadians "coincided with and contributed to a radical alteration in sexual atitudes." Prostitutes raised their prices because the Canadians had more money than English servicemen; at the same time, they reduced the amount of time spent with each customer. In addition, brothels became less clean than they had been.32 Moreover, the incidence of venereal disease (VD) in the RAF rose.33 But the RAF rate was surpassed by the Canadian, which was between six and seven times higher in 1942 and 1943.34 According to Max Hastings, Bomber Command in 1943 "had the highest rate of venereal disease ... and No. 6 Group's Canadians a rate of five times higher than anyone else's.035 Actually, although No. 6 Group did have among the highest VD rates within Bomber Command in August 1943, they were closer to twice than five times the RAF rate.36 Another aspect of the problem was that aircrew's VD rate was generally four times higher than that of ground crew. In October 1943 Bomber Command's rates were 36.0 per thousand per annum for aircrew and 8.4 for ground crew. For No. 6 Group they were 67.2 for aircrew and 16.8 for ground cr~w. or almost double the RAF rates.37

British policy regarding the identification and treatment of the victims of VD was enshrined in Defence Regulation 338, which had not been promulgated until late in December 1942. This ordered any person named by at least two contacts to submit to an examination and any necessary treatment.38 Apparently, the RCAF would have been content with one contact for tracing an infected person, but they had to be satisfied with the regulation as it stood.39 A serious problem with the law's implemention was the difficulty of obtaining two reports about the same woman. Many of the encounters between airmen and civilian women were random, and the men sometimes knew only the woman's nickname. Often the men were drunk at the time and could remember few details. Under these circumstances, even one report accomplished little.40 Furthermore, medical officers of health (MOH) who acted unofficially on the basis of only one report left themselves open to lawsuits alleging "slander or defamation of character.••41 Consequently, Breadner informed Power, the nub of the problem was locating contacts, because the British were unwilling to "take such drastic steps as both the Americans and Canadians desired.

...


As early as September 1941, Sinclair had written: "I am not moved by a feeling of special responsibility for the Canadian troops as the incidence of veneral disease among the civil population in Canada is far higher than here."Sl In fact, the Air Ministry at times blamed the Canadians and other 'aliens' for the prevalence of VD. In a September 1943 study of fifty-three RAF and RCAF stations, Inspector General II, Air Chief Marshal Sir Philip Joubert de la Ferte, called the Canadian Bomber Group's incidence of VD "deplorable.•52 He singled out three particularly poor stations, two of which were No. 6 Group stations. For example, at RCAF Leeming there was an unusual number of VD cases among ground crew, which Joubert attributed to the RCAF's "lower standard of discipline and conduct." He suggested that ~his could have been the source of trouble between the WAAFs and Canadians at Leeming that ended with their having to mess separately.53 The Canadians again came in for special comment in a report on VD prepared by Joubert and Lord Amulree. They found that most infections occurred in cities and large towns. Close to No. 6 Group's area were York, Doncaster and Leeds, the last of which was especially infamous. With their greater spending power Canadians could buy hard liquor instead of beer. The higher Canadian VD rate was also blamed on the fact that English women were tempted into extra-marital affairs with Canadians simply because the latter were foreigners; and with their extra money the Canadians could afford to 'skim off the cream' .54 The RAF Chaplain-in-Chief went so far as to say that the Canadians were actually 'spiking' the English girls' drinks.55 Joubert and Amulree recommended that Edwards, AOC-in-C RCAF Overseas, be notified about the situation in an effort to get the RCAF to clean up its act.56

 

thats an amazing piece on social history and pretty much unknown via the history books about canadian brides, i will cherry pick some of this for our family history - nice one !

 

From reading Marks post I would hope you do - I was going to say cherry pick but it doesnt sound right to me in this instance - select is a word I would have chosen for those parts that would fit into a family history

Something else that may be interesting for you to read is this book
REAP THE WHIRLWIND. The Untold Story of 6 Group, Canada's Bomber Force of World War II.
DUNMORE, Spencer and William Carter.
REAP THE WHIRLWIND. The Untold Story of 6 Group, Canada's Bomber Force of World War II. by DUNMORE, Spencer and William Carter.: (1992) | Alex Alec-Smith ABA ILAB PBFA

TD

Other copies are available from other sellers - Reap the Whirlwind by Spencer Dunmore - AbeBooks