Gloster Meteor vs. Me-262

I know these two aircraft (or any two jet aircraft in WW2) never fought each other, but does anyone know whether comparisons were done after the war? All the published figures I've seen suggest that the Meteor is much, MUCH slower, but this relates only to the 'short nacelle' MkI: I don't know whether any later marks got into service before the war's end, nor whether they were much faster.

 

The Meteor F.III entered service in December 1944.An advanced flight was sent to Melsbroek in Belgium,the rest of the squadron was sent to the continent in March of 1945(doesn't say where),they saw limited action (doesn't specify what "limited action" is in the info i have) before the war ended in May.

A further Squadron,504 Sqn began forming with Meteor F.III's in April 1945 but the war had ended before they were operational.

F.III Meteor's had two Rolls Royce-Whittle Welland Turbojets giving 2000lbs of thrust each,giving the F.III a top speed of 470mph at a maximum height of 30,000ft.

That i'm afraid is all i have,how does that compare to the Me262 ??.

Steven

 

Rather poorly in terms of maximum speed, I think (about 70mph gap by memory). I would have to go back and do some digging to find out other factors. The aircraft with the lowest wing loading and highest thrust-weight ratio ought to win, unless the other is capable of disengaging cleanly. Given the 262's swept wing (however minimal), I don't think it would have any problems disengaging (i.e. in a high-mach dive) from even a Meteor III (certainly not from a Mk I, rated at about 410mph). I seem to recall that critical mach number for the Meteor wasn't all that crash-hot.

The problem would be very similar IMHO to that of the Meteor F.VIII's of the RAAF in the Korean conflict, when pitted against the MiG-15. The F.VIII was much faster than the early models, but the -15 was at least as much faster again as the 262 was over the early Meteors. Result: a kill-loss ratio heavily in favour of the MiG. Advantages of the Meteor (to the extent that it had them) were: more rapid acceleration at low level (where the Meteors were, in any case, as part of their air-support role), two engines (ability to get home if one were damaged), rugged construction and armament (four relatively high-velocity cannon at high rate of fire, as compared to three heavier guns, somewhat slower, with lower MV). I suspect that the relative merits would be much the same for early Meteor vs. Me262, but of course we will never know...

 

Everything I've read tends to indicate the 262 would have out performed the Meteor III . An interesting book is the Messerschmidt 262 Combat Diary . In it it gives a good account of the evaluations flown . One particularly interesting part is an account from Clive Gosling who was flying Gloster Meteor's with 616 Squadron in 1945 . He was tasked with flying a 262 in May 45 from Lubeck to Fassberg .
His impressions are not in a technical sense , but more as a pilot .
He stated .
" Now , what was the Me262 like in comparison to the Meteor ? . It was 80 kph faster , the critical Mach number was higher and the rate of climb roughly similar . The rudder balance was smooth and the view from the cockpit was definately not so good . It was rather more difficult to fly and the turbines less reliable ( i imagine this was hearsay , as he only flew it the once ) . I had flown 200 hrs in the Meteor with only one engine failure . The armament was essentially heavier than the Meteor , the rate of turn less good and , with this one short flight and the manoeuves I had attempted , the amount of fuel remaining led me to believe that the fuel consumption was much higher than the Meteor , and that the Me262 could have had only a short combat radius and would have had to return to base much ealier ."
Only a short analasis , but interesting none the less I think .
A stated in ealier in my post , everything I have read indicates the Meteor III would have been out performed by the 262 , but also the combat situation would have to be taken into account . The Hawker Hurricane would not have matched up well to the 109E on paper ...but with dogfights during the B of B being around 200 mph and the combat situation it was able to give a very good account of itself .
It would have been an interesting fight to see !!...
Cheers .
Phil.

 

Phil


In his account Clive Gosling says the turbines were less reliable.As you say doubtful that he could determine that in one short flight.

But i have red somewhere (desperately trying to remember where) that the Me262's major short coming was it's short engine life of 26 HOURS !!!!.I can't remember if this came from analysis after the war of from captured German Records.

Have you heard or red this too ??.

Stephen

 

Stephen
Yes thats right mate , the engine life was something in that range . One of the major problems was that the turbine blades had to be made from lower quality material due to shortages . It was something to do with the way the blades stretched and spread under the extreme temps and pressures from memory . I have the data somewhere , and will dig it out if someone is not kind enough to add it beforehand . It would be interesting to see the data the Checoslovakian's ( thats gotta be spelt wrong ?? ) had on the 262 , as they used it as a fighter until about 1948 I think , calling it the S-92 . The 262 was designed originally to carry the BMW 003' engines and to have them mounted in the wing roots . The Jumo 004 was a larger engine so they mounted it mid wing . I've read that the performance of the 262 would have been improved if the engines had been mounted in this position , even the larger 004's .
I'll get back to you with that data , if your interested .
Cheers.
Phil.

 

The Messerschmitt Me 262 was one of the first turbojet-powered aircraft to achieve combat status, and was the result of pre-war research with gas turbines in Germany. Design of the aircraft started in 1938 and the prototype airframes were ready in 1941 but , as the Junkers jet engines were not ready then the first flight took place on April 18.

When production started in 1944...Hitler persisted in demanding developemnt of the Me 262 as a bomber for reprisal raids on the UK. Development of the fighter was badly delayed and it wasd not until late in '44 that the aircraft entered Luftwaffe service. The Me 262A-la Schwalbe (Swallow) fighter was armed with four 30mm guns in the nose. It was followed by the Me 262A-la/U1 with two additional 20mm guns, the Me 262A-la/U2 bad weather fighter, and the /U3 unarmed reconnaissance aircraft.

The Me 262A-2a Sturmvogel (Stormy Petrel) bomber could carry up to 1,102lbs of bombs in addition to the 30mm guns and a two-seat version (with prone bomb aimer) Me 262A-2a/U2 was also produced.

Before the end of the war Me 262s were being flown with some success against Allied bombers both as day and night fighters (the latter were radar-equiped Me 262B-la/U1 aircraft) and air-to-air rockets were being developed. Dogged by Allied raids on factories and airfields, the Luftwaffe's jet fighter units nevertheless posed a formidable threat to Allied air superiority during the last few months of the war.

Specification:
Me 262A-la
* Single seat interceptor fighter
* two 1.984lb thrust Junkers Jumbo turbojets
* Max speed 541 mph at 29,965ft
* initial climb rate 3,937ft per minute
* ceiling 36,090ft
* normal range 525 miles

Meteor F.MkI
* Single seat interceptor fighter
* two 1,700lb thrust Rolls-Royce Welland I turbojets
* Max speed 415 mph at 10,000ft
* ceiling 40,000ft
* armament - four nose mounted 20mm Hispano cannon with provisions for six

The above information is from The Encyclopedia of Weapons of World War II

 

Interesting stuff from the encyclopedia Michael Wittmann .
There are a few urban legend's in there though .
From memory the 262 first flew with 2 BMW 003's and a DB605 in the nose just incase , which was a good thing as the 003's failed soon after take off ..compressor blade failure was the cause from memory . Also Hitler has been blamed often for the late entry of the 262 into service as a fighter , but people who have studied the subject believe it was more a failure to produce a servicable and reliable engine . Some even believe Hitler's idea was correct , as a fighter bomber that was able to penetrate the Allied air umbrella during D-Day would have been a real asset . Ofcourse the jet wasn't operational until after the Allied landings . Again from memory , even though Hitler forbade any work to go ahead on the fighter variant of the 262 , work continued . He was spewing when he later found out that work had continued on the fighter .
Commando Nowotney was not very successful in operating the first 262 fighter force , with all the problems of bringing an unknown aircraft type into service without it really being ready for service . JG7 was more successful , and infact had more success than the more well known JV44 Commanded by Galland .
If the R4M rocket had been available earlier , the type would have been more successful .
I have been thinking Stephen , and I believe ( again from memory ) that the Jumo 004 was replaced after 10 hours of service...but again thats from memory.
I believe KG51 brought the type into service as a fighter-bomber .
Another fault with the Jumo 004 was that the engine was very prone to flaming out , this happened mainly if the throttle was roughly handled , or if a high g manouvre was attempted . Galland's method was to set and forget the throttle at about 3 quarters.
The Welland and Jumo turbojets were actually two varients of the same idea . I think the Welland was a centrifugal turbojet and the Jumo and axial ...The axial type is the one that survives today .
I think I should consult some of the books I have on the 262 before I continue gassing on about it , but working 15 hour days means that I don't normally get a chance to enjoy my books until I am on my days off .
Cheers
Phil.

 

Phil

I would be very interested to see the data on the various types of engine proposed/used in the Me262.I'll await it with interest.

Wittmann's Revenge

Thanks for the comparison spec's between the Me262 and Meteor.really didn't realise that with the first version's of each fighter,that the difference between the top speed was so great.

Stephen

 

Both

Living were i do,Telford in Shropshire i am 15 minutes drive from RAF Cosford.Which houses the Royal Air Force Museum.In addition to the fantastic engines,rockets,prototypes,transport aircraft,warbirds,military jets on display they have an example of both the Me262 and Meteor.

The Meteor,DG202/G is the first prototype Meteor that first flew on 24.07.1942 powered by two Rover W2b engines.

The Me262 (Werk No 112372) is a Me262A-1.Early history is unknown but it ended up at Farnborough after the war,where it was given the RAF serial no VK893.

In addition to the aircraft,on display in the engine hall they have an example of the Jumo 004 and a Rolls Royce W2b/23 and a Rolls Royce Derwent (both of which powered versions of the Meteor).

Interestingly they also have an example of the Power Jets W2/700,made by Frank Whittles own company.It never went into production but in trials by 1944 it was producing 2485lbs of thrust.Examples of this engine did fly in prototype meteors.The company was taken over by the Ministry of Aircraft Production in 1944 and the project was scrapped,If Only !!.

I have attatched a photo of each of the aircraft,taken from the excellent guide book that i got on my last visit (one of about 12 visits so far).

Stephen

 

And now the Me262

Stephen

 

Stephen
Absolutely brilliant pics mate !!!!! .
I am looking forward to adding some details on the 262 , but as I was sipping a scotch at the end of the day I thought I would look up werk # 112372 .
I found that it is painted in the colours of KG(J)51 . However the authors of the 262 combat diary's took Hermann Buchner to see it oneday . He sat in the cockpit and said " these markings are wrong . This is not a fighter-bomber . I can tell at once from the weapons switches . It must have come from my old unit Jagdgeswader 7 !"....Interesting stuff huh ?.
Phil.
really great pic's !!!!

 

Phil

As i said the pictures came straight from the museum guide book.All the pictures in the book are of the actual aircraft on display in the museum.All i've done with the pictures once i'd scanned them was enlarge them.

Looking at the two aircraft together i'd have to say the Me262 looks more purposeful,built for speed.Interesting to think where would the Me262 have ended up if it had,had the extended production life and developement post war that the meteor had.Or indeed if they hadn't had the quality problems with the turbine blades.The guide book even has pictures of the two engines and in the case of the Jumo 004,even that looks built for speed.

The Meteor proved to be a rugged aircraft none the less and proved easily adaptable for a wide variety of one off specials for testing purposes.I've seen a photograph of one fitted with two "Turbo-Prop" engines during the late 40's early 50's.The museum has 3 other examples of the Meteor.A T7 trainer used by Martin Baker for Ejector Seat trials,a one off special with an extended nose for trials with the pilot lying in the Prone position and a NF 14.

It is a night fighter version that is the last air worthy example in the world.Unique in that it has less than 500 hour's on it's airframe and has used only about 40% of it's air frame fatique life !!.A regular on the Uk airshow circuit.

Attatched is a photo of the extended nose meteor i mentioned.It is a modified F8,with the tail of a NF12 to counter balance the long nose.The idea behind it was to try and prevent the pilot passing out in high "G" manouvers.It made a total of 99 flights before the project was stopped and the subsequent development of the G Suit,made the need for the pilot to lie down unnessecary.Interesting to think of an Me262 modified in such a way,had the boot been on the other foot !!

Look forward to the figures.

Stephen

 

First off , I have to retract something I said earlier . When the 262 first flew with the BMW003's , it didn't have a DB605 in the nose as a safety backup , but a DB210 .
I guess the Jumo 004's are the centre of any discussion about the Me262 , but also to remember is the problems with adapting an airframe to perform well and safely at untried high speeds . This possed many problems and things that seemed like they would take little designing , like the retractable front undercarriage wheel continually caused problems and delays .
The 12th prototype of the Me262 reached a speed of 624 mph in July 1944 . It would be years before this record was broken . The 262 could be flown up to 570 mph , but from 585-620mph ( depending on the individual airframe ) it could become uncontrolable . Often it would pitch down progressively , until it was impossible to correct the dive , and with no ejector seat , the pilot was doomed . Luftwaffe instructions were , that 596 mph should never be exceeded below 26,250 ft , and above that no aircraft should exceed 560 mph.
As far as the Jumo 004's are concerned , Stephen was very correct when he said the life of a production engine was between 10 and 24 hours , depending much on the skill of the pilot . The early pre-production engines could operate on the test bed for as much as 250 hours . This was because they used high grade chrominum and nickel . These engines used 88kg of nickel . By late 1943 only 24.4 kg of nickel was authorized for each engine . The German engineers brilliantly adapted and such item's as the combustion chambers were made from steel and sprayed with aluminium before being baked in an oven . Whilst being successful , these techniques were only a part answer and the failure of these parts to take the pressure and heat caused many failures and fires , which if happened in the air , with the 262 limping back on one engine , and many Allied fighters around hungry to add a " blow job " to there score , could often mean death . Even to escape by parachute was fraught with danger as some U.S. fighter groups had been " unofficially " ordered to shoot jet pilots in their chutes as they believed only specially trained aircrew could fly the jet .
The actual engine life was not such a problem if supplies of spare engines were available , as it could take as little as 30 minutes to replace an engine in the right conditions .
Anyway..thats enough typing for the moment , long winded posts are a pain in the A .
I get my sources from 3 great books if anyone was interested in further reading , and they are . The Messerschmitt 262 Combat Diary.. JG7 , and The Last Year of the Luftwaffe ...I have some others on the subject , but a bloke has got only so many eyes !
Phil.

 

Phil

Thanks for that,very interesting is The Messerschmitt 262 Combat Diary still available or is it going to be a trawl around the internet for that one ??.

It wasn't till the arrival of the Meteor F8 (in October 1948) that the speeds of the two aircraft were comparable (598mph) by which time the Me262 was long gone.

If the war had dragged on it would have been interesting to see an F8 up against an Me262.Highly probable though that with the extra development time gained by the war dragging on, the Me262 may well have been even faster still.Especially if that time had allowed them to solve the reliabilty problems with the engines.

The two advantage's of all versions of the Meteor had over the Me262 was the pilot's" better view out of the window",due to the cockpit been well forward of the leading edge of the wing.Plus from the ouset the Meteor was designed with Tricycle under carriage,were as it was "forced" on the Me262 after problems arising from having a tail wheel on the initial prototypes.Problems which you have touched on in your posting.

We shall never know how the two aircraft would have faired when pitted against each other.It is something we can only ponder over in threads like this or possibly experience in games/flight simulators on our PC's.

One last thing the only "known" combat victory by a Meteor was by an Israeli NF13 in October 1956,when it shot down an IL 14 transport of the Eygptian airforce.

Stephen

 

Hang on a minute - surely not the ONLY Meteor kill: didn't the Aussie Meteor F.8s in the Korean conflict bag a number of MiG 15's? Maybe the only NF kill...

As far as the war dragging on is concerned: the Germans had, ready for flight-test, the tailless swept wing Horten/Gotha 229 (Horten IX to some), which could allegedly do 600-odd MPH in level flight. That's cutting close to F-86 performance in 1945! Plus numerous other designs which (regrettably) we will never get to see how well they might have done (though at least one was built/completed by the USSR and became their first supersonic aircraft).

The British went for the centrifugal-compressor engine (as opposed to the German axial-flow), which by my understanding was a lot easier to build and maintain, but whose downfall was that it was totally unsuited for very high speeds and basically had no future to it. Under the circumstances, CORRECT. But once the pressure was off and engine development became a leisurely affair, the centrifugal-compressor concept went on the back-burner (and stayed there). The message is not "Kids, don't try this at home," but "Try this first before you build an axial engine." :P

 

Originally posted by BlackSeptember1918@Jun 11 2004, 12:11 PM
... I thought I would look up werk # 112372 .
I found that it is painted in the colours of KG(J)51 . However the authors of the 262 combat diary's took Hermann Buchner to see it oneday . He sat in the cockpit and said " these markings are wrong . This is not a fighter-bomber . I can tell at once from the weapons switches . It must have come from my old unit Jagdgeswader 7 !"
All goes to prove, there's nothing like the opinion of a REAL expert to deflate the egos of those who THINK they know it all!!! :P

 

Originally posted by Justin Moretti@Jun 23 2004, 12:54 AM
Hang on a minute - surely not the ONLY Meteor kill: didn't the Aussie Meteor F.8s in the Korean conflict bag a number of MiG 15's? Maybe the only NF kill.


Justin

My source is the (The Illustrated Directory of Fighters) it covers both the F8 and the NF series of the Meteor.

In the write up for the F8 it merely says "The F8 was flown in Korea in 1952 by the RAAF against communist MiG-15's,which outclassed it".It makes no mention of any "kills".

The same book does say "as far as is known,the only air combat victory scored by ........" was by a NF 13 as previuosly mentioned.

I'd loved to be proved wrong,there's nothing i love more than pulling books/publishers to pieces when they get things wrong !!.

Do you know of any accounts written by those RAAF pilots of the F8's about their experiences against the MiG's.It would make for fascinating reading and if they actually managed to bring any down that would have been some achievement.

Stephen

 

Originally posted by Justin Moretti+Jun 23 2004, 12:56 AM-->(Justin Moretti @ Jun 23 2004, 12:56 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-BlackSeptember1918@Jun 11 2004, 12:11 PM
... I thought I would look up werk # 112372 .
I found that it is painted in the colours of KG(J)51 . However the authors of the 262 combat diary's took Hermann Buchner to see it oneday . He sat in the cockpit and said " these markings are wrong . This is not a fighter-bomber . I can tell at once from the weapons switches . It must have come from my old unit Jagdgeswader 7 !"
All goes to prove, there's nothing like the opinion of a REAL expert to deflate the egos of those who THINK they know it all!!! :P [/b]

No greater expert than a former pilot who's been there,seen it,done it.The passing of time certainly didn't seem to dull the memory of Hermann Buchner.

Reminds me of an something from a few years back.At the time of the hostage taking in the Lebonon Terry Waite,John McCarthy and Jackie Mann.

When Jackie Mann a former Battle of Britain Spitfire pilot was finally released the RAF put on a guard of honour and brought along a Spitfire.Jackie hadn't sat in a Spitfire since his wartime days.He sat in the aircraft for the first time in around 50 years and the first thing he said was "where's the gun-sight".Really made me smile that.

Apparently they'd removed the gun-sight as they didn't think there was any need for it in peacetime.Don't think Jackie did though !!. :P

Stephen

 

“That, then, was the Me 262, variously known as the Schwalbe and the Strumvogel. But whatever the appellation, it was in my view unquestionably the foremost warplane of its day: a hard hitter which outperformed anything that we immediately available….”
Brown RN, Capt Eric., Wings of the Luftwaffe, Airflife, 1979, P68

the Good Captain had flown both the ME262 and Meteor