Grandfather's Service Records

Hi,

I recently managed to get a hold of my grandfathers service records from WW2 and I am struggling to interpret the information contained within it.

He was a bricklayer in the Royal Engineers and I believe that he landed in Normandy on D-Day but his service records don't really reveal much else.

From my research I think that the next logical step would be to find out which unit he was assigned to in the Royal Engineers and then apply for the war diary for that unit?

His service record seems to show his unit but it's a series of abbreviations and I can't make sense of it. (His handwriting doesn't help)

I've attached his records here, if anyone can shine any light on this it would be much appreciated.

Thanks
Matt.

 

Hi Matt

Is this all you got from TNA?

If that is the case, you will need to get back to them as the Service & Casualty Form (Army Form 103) is missing which usually has all of the unit details on it.

All these docs can confirm he joined the General Service Corps on 03/06/43 and underwent training at 59 Primary Training Wing (PTW).

He was transferred in to the RE on 02/07/43.

Being in North West Europe from 04/06/44 would support your belief that he went to Normandy on D-Day.

His tracer card on FMP regrettably has no additional details

I am mystified why your grandfather's religion would need redacting.

Hope this helps

Gus

 

Hi Gus,

Yes this is all they sent me.

I'm going to email them back and ask them for the Army form 103, hopefully they can locate it.

Thanks for the info.

Matt.

 

First two lines on Casualty Form read 59 PTW = 59 Primary Training Wing apparently attached to a Primary Training Centre
See link below
General Service Corps | Researching the Lives and Records of WW2 Soldiers

From 59 PTW he was transferred to Royal Engineers on the authority written against it on 2.7.43

The number 199189 is his Army Number = Royal Army Service Corps (Block 1)"99189
The long number top left of the form is misleading its a file number 14621072. appears as an error on CMP search tool
Had this before quite recently when the so called "Army Number" was not accepted but the one written in the top right corner was.
The Service number 199189 is in the centre of the Form, must be a correction when audited..

History Sheet

Home 3'6'43 - 3.6.44

North West Europe 4.6.44 - 29.12.46

BAOR = British Army of the Rhine 20.10.45 - 29.12.46 / Home

ZT = 30.12.46 see below

Class Z - Class A - X Code : X (viii) - British Army - WWII

 

Not to forget his details (Matthew - if they are on an attachment they cannot be found in a search):

Malcolm McKenzie, b. 17/2/1912, Service Number 199189 (Corrected 25/8)

He has not appeared here before this thread, neither his name or service number.

 

Investigated the Service Number see #4 for details

 

Found this RE tracer card;

 

re #7

The army number: 179906 indicates that the soldier's original unit or date joined was:
"Royal Army Service Corps (Block 1)"

The army number: 14621072 indicates that the soldier's original unit or date joined was:
"General Service Corps"

The above number is now accepted on CMP Search Tool
Pilot Error on # 4 or CMP website malfunction?

 

Three numbers for one man???

The army number: 199189 indicates that the soldier's original unit or date joined was:
"Royal Army Service Corps (Block 1)"
.

 

Hi,

First off thanks alot for taking the time to help me with this, it's much appreciated.

I asked the MOD about Army Form 103 and I was told that they don't have it.

Going by the 59 PTW reference, it looks like he was attached to the No.9 Infantry Training Centre which was changed to the 51st Highland Division at some point after the fall of France, I think this training facility is located at the Gordon Barracks in Aberdeen - he must have only been here for a short time because I was told he did his training in England, I'm guessing he was sent there after being transferred to the Royal Engineers in preparation for D-Day - does this sound plausible or am I mistaken?

Regarding the entry that refers to his transfer to the Royal Engineers, there is a string of numbers & letters written on that line (see attached) - does anyone know what this says or what the purpose of this code is?

Also, regarding the 3 relevant numbers assigned to him, can any of these numbers be used to identify his unit and source a war diary ? I'd really like to get to the bottom of what he did and where he went.

At the moment, I only have 1 photo of him from the war (see attached) my grandfather is on the right, I believe the names of the other men are written on the back of the photo, the rumour in our family is that this photo was taken in Antwerp outside the Cathedral there however I contacted someone at the Cathedral and they have confirmed that there aren't any doors there that resemble the one of the photo - so perhaps it was taken outside some other church in Antwerp or somewhere else on the road from Normandy - Antwerp.

Thanks alot
Matt.

 

#10 above:

Service Records destroyed by Veterans Agency?

The unit he first joined might not have been where he ended his service need to treat this with caution.
Once having gone through Primary Training he could be posted anywhere.


Hand written line, the clue is in the first word Authority i.e reference of the originator of the order, usually an Administration Officer or Department
Others might help with the acronym, looks familiar but cant remember where at the moment.
Suspect War Office Unit Management or similar.

Can't help re the door, my primary study is N Africa and Italy.

 

Hi,

What would be a logical next step for me to take with this investigation? Any advice?

The names of the other men in the photo are written on the back, could this help?

Thanks
Matt.

 

I think it is true to say that most members have found out how to do this by personal experience.
There are some very capable people on the forum but have their own specialisms.
My primary study is researching the History of a Royal Artillery Field Regiment who fought in the BEF in France
Then went over seas to Tunisia and Italy.

It sometimes helps to post photographs particularly with names as they are picked up by new members joining over time.
You need to come back periodically to check.

 

Matt,

Yes, add the names of those on the photos. Not only may others join having found them, it can open up new avenues.

Assemble a timeline alongside where the information came from. It is worth returning to the thread as items can slip past. 'Watch' the thread and you will get an alert via email if anything is added - useful if you do not visit regularly.

Looking quickly through the thread one large obstacle is no RE unit has been id'd, nor I think any larger unit, e.g. a division.

 

Hi Matt

If TNA does not have his Service & Casualty Form (Army Form 103) and FMP's RE tracer card is lacking in substance, you will have to find as much secondary information as you can.

This would include and is by no means a full list:

1. Photograghs.
2. Service medals and 'theatre' Star (eg Italy Star, Africa Star. lookign for any clasp (8th Army etc.)
3. Letters.
4. Friends or family recollections.

There were literally hundreds of Royal Engineer established units during WW2.

More info here. Engineers

Unfortunately this can be a very long process.

Hope this helps.

Gus

 

Hi,

So it seems that only the surnames are written on the back of the photo.

Left to Right - Glover / Hales / Mckenzie

Something I noticed upon closer inspection of the photo was that the soldier on the left has a double chevron patch on his arm which I believe makes him a Corporal, so 'Corporal Glover', this may be something I can search for.

Thanks
Matt.

 

Hi Matt

The Allies liberated Antwerp on September 4, 1944, so that must date photo sometime afterwards.

According to FMP, 60 persons with the surname Glover joined the RE between 1940 and 1944.

According to FMP, 19 persons with the surname Hales joined the RE between 1940 and 1944.

I did a wild card search (eg. 146210**) for military records on FMP and Ancestry, looking for all soldiers with service numbers close to your grandfather and found 4 more who ended up in the Royal Engineers.


A look at each of their tracer cards suggested at least 3 did go to NWE with 21 AG. Only 3 had unit names, one of those I was unable to decipher.

I could be wildly off, but you can only work with what's out there.

Hope this helps

Gus

 

Hi Matt

I have read that DBN could be short for "Depot Battalion" which was one of the RE holding units prior to being posted to another unit.

X lists (Service Records)

Hope this helps

Gus

 

Hi

Just confirming that "A Company 2 (P) D B N" is indeed a Depot Battalion, in this case No 2 (Posting) Depot Battalion which, in 1943, was based in Halifax.

Steve
sjw8

 

Hi,

So it seems that even soldiers with similar service numbers were not likely to be sent to the same unit? So I'm unable to extrapolate anything from the units that those other soldiers were sent to?

I searched the National Archives for the surname 'Hales' since it looks like it is the rarer of the 2 surnames, I then filtered to leave only soldiers with similar service numbers to my grandfathers - I ended up with these 3 men who were transferred to the RE.

Name: F W Hales . Service number: 14636728 . Date of birth: 21 October 1911 . | The National Archives

Name: J Hales . Service number: 14673764 . Date of birth: 13 October 1909 . | The National Archives

Name: L Hales . Service number: 14599401 . Date of birth: 16 September 1903 . | The National Archives

Is there anything that can be done with this information?

I'm clutching at straws at this point.

Thanks
Matt.