Grid References and location of Bridges Italy

My wife's grandfather, Colonel Leslie Gwynne -Royal Engineers, was the CRE of 8th Army Troops during the Italian Campaign. He has left us two brief cases of photos, drawings and documents of his time in Italy during which he built many bridges. We are visiting Italy in September to visit the sites of all the bridges he built. However I am unable to identify the sites of the bridges in the attached photos nor am I able to interpret the grid reference of the Boroghetto Bridge operational order we have: MR. A 730174.

Any ideas as to the locations of the bridges and also who in Italy might be interested in seeing these historical documents as we drive from top to bottom of the country.

Julian

 

Hi
To find the present day location of the bridge, go to this web site The "Coordinates Translator"
The location is in map square rA of the southern Italy grid so in the translator page enter rA730174 in the box for the modified British coordinates and the site will take you to a zoomable map as per the attached image.
If your other bridges have map references then you should be able to locate them all using this method although as you move north you will need to use the northern Italian grid but the 'letter' codes will help you identify which one.
For the WW2 maps, try this web site Campobasso | Digital Archive @ McMaster University Library (that's a link to a single map). For this particular location you need sheet 138 of the 1:100000 series and its just in the bottom left hand corner.

As for interest, not sure about within Italy but we have members who are based there who could probably suggest. In any case, I suggest there would be a lot of interest on this forum and after that I would suggest contacting the IWM or similar.

Graham

 

Have you tried this Kiwi resource, in particular for the RE Journal? See: Heritage Material and this thread: Major road routes in Italy during the war

Did your relative ever publish anything?

 

Perhaps these?

Bridges over Rivers Ofanto and Cervaro between Barletta and Foggia.
these works were carried out by 160 Railway Construction Company, R.E., in the very early days of the campaign before Tn. Stores had started to arrive in the country in any quantity. Each bridge had three spans each of about 60 feet. Small supplies of L.S.U.S.T. were available but suitable bridge spans were not.

Railway reconstruction Italy 1943-1946 - Chapter II Section III Subsection 2

 

I've looked at the photos now and thanks for sharing. I suspect my father would have driven over both the Foggia and Barletta bridges. Do you have map references for other bridges you could share?

 

Thank you all for your contributions. In terms of the other bridges Colonel Gwynne was involved with, he was particularly proud of was the ones over the River Sango (43) and over the River Po (45) I have the full op orders for both bridges as well as working drawings. I have been able to identify the locations of these two bridges from the aerial photos I have of the destroyed bridges. Colonel Gwynne was decorated for his work on the Po bridges - see citation

 

Yes We had to delay our trip to Italy because of COVID hence the two year delay. Any ideas on the bridge location over the River Trigano referred in the citation?.

 

As per Owen's post above a lot of this information is in your earlier post, think the Sangro photo in your post #16 is the Trigno
39165 Col Leslie Edgar Alfred GWYNNE, RE - Italy: bridges location help from aerial photos
39165 Col Leslie Edgar Alfred GWYNNE, RE - Italy: bridges location help from aerial photos

Some info here:


Field study no 3: The crossing of the Trigno and Sangro rivers, Nov-early Dec 1943 | The National Archives

 

Thank you So this might be the bridge over the Trigno River rather the Sango as I had originally thought. So the question is -where is this bridge? Might I have to go to the NA to find out?

 

Julian,

Excellent details and best regards to the memory of your grandfather in law....

My own dear old Dad, Edmund, was certainly the beneficiary of so many of the REs' fantastic work right up the Italian peninsula having tramped the whole way from Syracuse to the Po with the 2nd Bn London Irish Rifles (38 (Irish) Brigade/78th Division).

Luckily enough, my brother and I have been able to trace the whole route from south eastern Sicily to northern Italy over the past 4 years (with a 2 year Covid gap) with our recent visit in early July crossing the Senio, Santerno, Reno and Po rivers (amongst main water obstacles).... the photo here (taken on 8th July 2022) of the modern Po river bridge near to where the Irish Brigade ended their 2 1/2 year journey from Algiers...

My father recalled 25th April 1945 when they reached the Po - no doubt, Colonel Gwynne was somewhere in the vicinity.

"We had arrived at the Po. During the last days of the offensive, we had passed a most distressing sight. Beautiful draught horses had been shot dead and lay bloated and stinking. The Germans had killed them rather than let them live and remain for us. Most had been commandeered from the unfortunate Italians. They had lost so much. Their beautiful country had been destroyed from Sicily to the Po and occupied by aliens from all over the world.

The south bank of the Po was an extraordinary scene. The Germans, trapped by the river, had abandoned everything. Many had even tried to swim the Po to escape and many died as a result. The carnage of war continued relentlessly as if it were now on a form of autopilot.

The company rested by the side of Po while the Royal Engineers set about bridging its mile width. I arranged a campfire and ‘drunk’ using Canadian beer and hot rum toddy. Corporal Howarth was, as usual, master of ceremonies. The Po bridge was completed. It was a magnificent structure with, at its entrance, the numbers of the engineer regiments and squadrons that had built it. Below that were listed the subcontractors. They included the London Irish Rifles who had contributed labour to the project."





In terms of the Trigno, although a long river indeed, perhaps I might suggest the location as depicted on a 1943 era trace (same place as highlighted by Tony in one of his posts on the other thread) - no autostrada or fast road of course then.....the original bridge had been blown up in mid October 1943 so my father had to wade across with his mules.

"At that time, the Trigno was only about 20 or 30 yards wide and generally less than a foot deep. Its mighty bridge, which catered for a raging torrent, was about 600 yards long but about 50 yards was blown in the middle. E Company was sent to relieve the Faughs at the bridgehead. I followed with a string of about a dozen mules and crossed the Trigno by a ford."



The newly built bridge is featured on the IWM site:
© IWM NA 8802-8808 ITALY : EIGHT ARMY





The current day strengthened bridge is less interesting (Petacciato to San Salvo road) but you can spot the debris of previously destroyed bridges in the river.



Hope some of this helps...

best wishes.

 

As I said here:
39165 Col Leslie Edgar Alfred GWYNNE, RE - Italy: bridges location help from aerial photos

 

The features of the road prove it:

 

Thank you Tony and Richard for your helpful replies.

Your emails prompted to examine some of the marked up aerial photos I have (attached) in a bit more detail and I am now sure they are from a series showing the crossings over the River Senio.

I have added this location to our road trip in September which will start in Sicily and finish in Ferrara. We will visit all Col Gwynne's HQ locations as well as the locations of bridges he built over the Trigno, Sangro, Tiber, Senio and Po.

Julian

 

Here are a few of Colonel Gwynne's photos from his album which you might find interesting.

These informal photos bring him to life.

Julian

 

Although they don't give grid references, here are a couple of pages from 78 Division Provost Company maps showing bridges and routes for the River Trigno. Plus one page from 6 AGRA diary giving a wider selection of bridge names.

 

Excellent, thanks.

Yes, the Senio - my father was at the Senio in March 1945 near Cotignola. What is notable of course is/was the large floodbanks of some the rivers in that area ...and, in 1945, trenches dug into them....it was all a bit grim.. France/Belgium 1916?.

Good luck with your journey - it should be epic. I've travelled the route a number of times. I'll be at Primosole bridge (Simeto river) on Saturday 17th September.

yours

 

Richard Thank you. I plan to be at Primosole Bridge on 2nd September.

The community may be able to help me in my search for the war diary of HQ 8th Army Troops RE which I was unable to locate on my visit to the National Archives.

I have found the war diaries of the the sub units under his command WO 170/1711 (561 Coy), WO170/1729 (586 Coy) and WO 170\1730 (587 Coy) as well as the HQ he reported to recorded conversations with him in the daily log.

But no luck with WO 170-/211/210/212/214/213/1498.

I am sure the War Diary must exist somewhere but it seems more difficult to locate when you are dealing with RE HQ units as opposed to Regimental units with a unique name.

Yours

Julian

 

Julian, I have just sent you a PM and would love to open a discussion with you in regards to these papers and also to provide you with the ideal contact in Italy who I am sure would be delighted to assist you. He is a serving senior officer with the RE who is currently posted to Italy and he is also very much interested in exactly what you have here.

Best Regards

Pete