HALIFAX MkV LL 114 - Crash

All the Handley Page drawings and other records are kept by the RAF Museum and IWM. Best approach is through the RAF Museum.

 

Hi,
After the publication of my book "CRASH HALIFAX LL114"
I have received some messages by French readers.(Sorry the book is in French langage).

One with the ATF6 of 5 nov. 1943.
You can read on this one that the code operation JOHN35 is associated with a DZ near Valence.
code name AIGUILLON / 45°02'45"N-04°56'04''E
The problem is that all the documents that I have collected during my search give :
Code operation JOHN35 associted with a DZ near APT
Code name ABRIS./ 44°00'37''N-05°25'40''E.

Is it possible to have the same code operation associated with two differents DZ ?
Unless I am mistaken, up to now, I was sure that a code operation was attached to only one DZ.
I need you light.
Andy

 

Hi,
By chance, 77 years later after the crash I have discovered not to far the VERCORS place, a great and heavy piece of an aircraft.
I think that is one of the four Halifax propeller hub, but I am not sure at 100%.
What do you think about this one ?
Andy

 

Andy

It certainly appears that it is a prop shaft hub for a 3 bladed propeller.

I cannot think the Halifax had props other than the 3 bladed prop.

Was the hub found close to the crash site?

 

Hello,
This summer 2022, the 9th of Auguste M. Jeffery, the nephew of the pilot Caroll, came in France and visited the graves in cemetery of Autrans.

The speech of M. Pirat (ERRA°
Mr Mayor
Ladies and gentlemen representatives of the associations
Ladies and gentlemen,
We are honored by the presence of Mr and Mrs Jeffery. Indeed, Mr. Patrick Jeffery is the nephew of Gerald Dennis Carroll, pilot of the Halifax LL114 which crashed in Autrans on 8th February 1944.
This family of 5 children was very hard hit during the Second World War as the three boys of the Carroll family: Michael John, Patrick Milne and Gerald Denis, all died in military service. And all three of them are buried outside of their home country. As for Gerald Denis, he lies here in the cemetery in Autrans alongside his crew, which included 4 English men and 2 Canadians.
We can only thank and pay our respect to this family who, during the Second World War, gave their lives so that today we can live in peace and freedom in our country.
I would add that Michael, the eldest brother, had a twin sister, Norah Ines, who is the mother of Patrick who is here with us today. She was an auxiliary in the territorial service. In addition, Kathleen, their sister, also worked in the British Army's top secret decryption center.
To conclude, lets remember that the brave never die, but they live on in history forever.
Thank you Mr and Mrs Jeffery for your presence here today which revives our memory of Gerald and his crew : Arthur,James,Ronald,Peter,Gordon,Kenneth who have forever marked the local history of the Vercors

.

 

The last one

Message from Patrick Jeffery.

I would like to thank you for all your effort in making Tuesday work so well. We both where thrilled to met you and your wife and pictures of the graveside ceremony have been seen by our family and everybody is surprised by the number present and the formality of the occasion. I will share the pictures with my cousins ie Gerald’s other nephew and nieces.
The time in the afternoon exploring the Vercors and the resistance museum was the icing on the cake.
Please thank the mayor and all from the RAF association and British legion who made a great impression on us.
Many thanks from a warm Vienne
Patrick and Margaret

 

Remember Today 8 feb 2024.

We are exactly 80 years after the night of crash of Halifax LL114.
In the village of Autrans, we dont forget the 7 members of the crew.
During thi year we do an exibition on the crash place to explain to the montain walkers what happen here.




Regards

 

Hi Andy,

The compass part is from a MkIXa Bombsight compass. Found one about eight years ago, but in bad shape, but with more parts of the bombsight.

Cheers,
Adrian

 

Hello. I'm a reporter in Canada and am writing about this crash today, Remembrance Day, for a story. A crew member, Arthur Reid, was a Canadian. Please contact me at bcrawford@postmedia.com

 

Harry, I'm a reporter in Ottawa Canada and this Remembrance Day we are writing about F/O Reid. Can you contact me at bcrawford@postmedia.com
Remembering one Canadian soldier this Remembrance Day in real-time | Ottawa Citizen

 

I have been in touch with Blair Crawford who acknowledges the information revealed by this thread on the loss of Halifax V Serial No LL114 NF-P and the fate of its crew, particularly P/O A E Reid a designated pilot but was acting as the navigator on this operation

We Are The Dead: Flying Officer Arthur Reid, 22 | Ottawa Citizen

Blair has given a good insight into the remembrance project "We are the Dead" covers which is now in its final year, the 14th, which will have covered the names of 119000 casualties of the Canadian armed force during the Second World War by Remembrance Day 2025....a name remembered each hour of every day by random selection.

 

Harry,

There is nothing to indicate Reid was ever a badged pilot, the word on his marker not withstanding.

His service record indicates he attended No. 10 EFTS at Hamilton, Ontario beginning 20 June 1942, drawing flying pay from the next day until 22 July 1942 when "flying pay ceases". He was then posted to No. Composite Training School at Trenton, Ontario RCAF Station Trenton - RCAF.Info.

Subsequently posted from Trenton to No. 7 Air Observers School, Portage, Manitoba. His service file (which is not in any way complete, rather the ancestry version) indicates he received his Air Observer's Badge at Portage 30 December 1942. In his full service file there will have been a reason for why flying training had ceased.

I think what happened is someone read the last page of his file (pg 47), attached, observed the entry "Pilot awaiting posting" and drew the false conclusion. No student at an ITS would have been a trained pilot.

Regards,

Dave

 

Thanks Dave

I have been misled by Arthur Reid's CWGC tombstone.

From his service record, it appears that he passed out as a Sergeant Nav on 30/12/42 having started training as a Navigator on 24/8/1942 and was immediately commissioned as a P/O

Remustering was quite common in aircrew training for any reason "cease training" and it appears that this was the case here. (The record to read could be better)

(As an aside, knew of a case where an airman who had a prewar pilot's licence but was sent to Canada on a pilot course. Apparently, he was quite a confident type and fell out with his flying instructor. The result was he was taken off the course but volunteered to remuster as a Bomb Aimer and passed out as such in Canada. Followed the crew's interesting ordeal from his son and the pilot's son when they landed in Brittany in an emergency at what is now Brest airfield, badly shot up on the run in. All survived and gave credit to the skill of the pilot but went into the bag)

 

Thanks Harry and Dave, for these détails.
I knew about its service record, but I didn't understand all the subtleties because of the many acronyms that I didn't know.
For us Reid was the navigator during John 35 operation.
Just a remark, it is written on Citizen Ottawa site
"Seven planes took off on a blustery night in 1944. Only five made it back. This is the story of one that didn't."
Only four Halifaxes of the 138 Sqr took off from Tempsford on February 7; two did not return, Carroll's/LL114 and Cook's/LW275. (Ref Operation record book 138 Sqr)
Sincerely
Andy