HMS Shrapnel

Hi All

Having recently acquired my Dad's Naval service record, I noted with much annoyance that they have only included shore bases and those that controlled the admin for whatever ship he was serving on at the time. I clicked into a link from another site got into a thread on this site about one of his drafts, HMS Shrapnel. Upon further ferreting around I discovered that 'Shrapnel' appeared to be a mobile UK land-based site, popping up all over the place. Dad's particular place was Hendon. Does anyone on here know how I get more details about his actual sea drafts? I know he served on HMS Jervis (Captain, 14th Destroyer Flotilla), HMS Capetown, HMS Erica, HMS Indomitable and SS Princess Marguerite. He started his active service at HMS Stag, a Combined Service Operation base in Haifa.

I noticed that somebody who posted on here a couple of years back had a grandfather whose service line was eerily similar to my dad's. Both were signalmen, both served at Royal Arthur, both served at Shrapnel and both served in Australia and Hong Kong. All help greatly appreciated

 

Another 'Curve Ball' thrown to me was 'HMS Freelance.' I have been able to find out quite a few other things through the wonders of Wikipedia and Google but this one still has shown me nothing...

 

Hi,

I have said many times on this forum that Naval records are perhaps the most frustrating of all the services for the reasons you have already experienced namely, the records show accounting bases and tend to omit the sea going drafts.
I note on my own service records a couple of ships that I served in are not named but only the naval party and the accounting base. Fine for now but not so good for anyone looking at them after I have gone.

Anyway you may wish to ask for details of his Pay and Victualing Ledger which may show the ships he was drafted to. I have seen this to be successful on some but not all occassions and certainly worth a try.
Any questions just ask.

HMS FREELANCE - Completed in February 1908
28/9/1940 requisitioned by the Admiralty for use as an Auxiliary Patrol Vessel
22/10/1940 became the base ship at Ipswich for the Auxiliary Patrol and was renamed HMS BUNTING
March 1944 became an accommodation ship and renamed FREEWILL
1945 Returned and renamed FREELANCE

Regards
Hugh

 

Thanks Hugh, much appreciated. I waited ages for a reply and you can imagine my disappointment when I got...well, nothing much really. I now have to try and figure out the dates he was on the ships I do know about...1942 is ok as I have come into possession of his diary for that year, but until I find some more memorabilia from my stepbrother (long story, not very interesting) I am shooting in the dark a bit. But at least I know more now than I did 24 hours ago, so thanks again

 

Hi Hugh, sorry to be a pain but having just looked through what the MoD sent me, it appears that one of the docs I received was in fact a breakdown of shore bases taken from Dad's Pay and Victualling ledger. I guess that they have done as much as can be reasonably expected, but if they knew beforehand that any search they undertook would not give details of actual ships, I think the least they could have done was to warn me beforehand...

 

The MoD are kept quite busy with service record requests and as such if a request for a record is made they will send it to you but they don't warn you of its contents.
With regard to his P & V record, as I said in my last posting some do show ships and others don't but if I were you I would ask them again. Drop them an email or a letter and ask

navysearchpgrc@tnt.co.uk

Director Naval Personnel,
TNT Records Management,
PO Box 7814,
William Nadin Way,
SWADLINCOTE,
Derbyshire,
DE11 1EG

Good luck with it.

Regards
Hugh

 

I think the problem may be that as Dad was possibly attached to Combined Operations Command, I may find that many of his records were withheld. Excerpts from his diary show him manning twin Lewis guns on armed merchant ships; not sure if this was standard procedure for Signalmen of the day, but I'm sure somebody will know.

 

Combined Ops may certainly be a reason for the lack of records but with regard to merchant ships they had DEMS gunners supplied by the RN and the Maritime Royal Artillery to handle the ship's armament.

Regards
Hugh

 

Another piece to your multifaceted search, herewith for info. I asked a seasoned matelot chum if he had any references in his 'library', which includes some he penned:

"I had never heard of HMS SHRAPNEL. The only information I could get was from my copy of 'Ships of the Royal Navy' by J J Colledge. He says 'STIFF - French DY (Dockyard) tug, seized 3.7.1940 at Southampton. Harbour service10.40-6.45, (Bore the name SHRAPNEL as base ship 1942-45).

It seems that it was in a similar situation as the 1856 floating battery HMS THUNDERBOLT which became a floating pier-head at Chatham with the name HMS DAEDALUS and served as a Depot Ship for the Royal Naval Air Service 1916-1918. The Cranwell RNAS was originally a 'Tender' to the Chatham DAEDALUS.

The same principle was probably applied to tenders (remote and obscure buildings with SHAPNEL as their depot ship)."

I wondered what a STIFF vessel was, wondering whether it was jargon like STUFT (Ship Taken Up from Trade), but there appears to be a genre of Stiff nomenclature vessels aligned to Tenders, Auxiliaries or Dories.

 

HMS SHRAPNEL was a non-seagoing accounting base at Southampton part of the Portsmouth Command.

I don't think STIFF stands for any jargon like S.T.U.F.T. - I think J.J. Colledge was suggesting that the French DY (Dockyard) tug 'STIFF' was seized 3.7.1940.

The RN had many depot ships and accounting bases prefixed HMS. You just have to work your way through them to find out which were actual ships and which were stone frigates.

Regards
Hugh

 

Hugh is correct, Stiff was a 50t French Naval tug seized at Southampton on 3rd July 1940. It seems to have served as a tender to HMS Shrapnel and was finally returned to French control on 12th April 1946.

 

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Our Father's WW2 Royal Navy service record shows he was at HMS Shrapnel (RN Unit Newcastle) and I also have his 'Radio Mechanics' training records that shows he passed Technical college training at 'RN Unit Newcastle' with an 83% pass.
That confirms there was definitly a satalite of HMS Shrapnel in Newcastle.
He went on to pass futher training at HMS Valkyrie on the Isle of Man.
Service record then shows he was a Radio Mechanic on future postings.
Hope that helps someone else.

 

It is incorrect to describe 'RN Unit Newcastle' as a satellite to HMS Shrapnel. A satellite unit is used to describe a unit of the main establishment based at another location. HMS Shrapnel (RN Unit Newcastle) merely means he was serving at RN Unit Newcastle but his Pay and Service Records were held at the Accounting Base HMS Shrapnel.

Tim

 

Thanks very much for the clarification Tim.
Interestig finding all this out over the last few weeks of investigation.

 

Hi and welcome, yes, there was a satellite unit at Newcastle and also one in London very small units not to be confused with the main accounting base at Southampton, which was part of the Portsmouth Command. Accounting bases had off-shoots attached to them, too, usually ending with a suffix I, II, III, IV etc. It is important obviously when looking at service records, to establish where any specific base is located, is to look at it in conjunction with dates [job specific trade] previous and post appointments. Sometimes people do very narrow searches and reach for the first search engine hit that is returned.

Regards
Hugh

 

Thanks Hugh.
Also tricky deciphering handwriting on his service record but worked all that out now. For this particular entry though it's backed up by his Radio Mechanic's training record so one entry sorted out.
Going to apply on-line for his P&V and see if that reveals anymore info I don't already have.
Tried the email address above but it failed. Having phoned the TNT number that's all done through GOV.UK website now and it will be free to obtain that info after 1st April this year....

 

Regarding Royal Naval service records in WW2.
Who actually filled the record in? Did it get passed between accounting bases (shore stations) as a rating got posted to different locations / ships etc or was it kept in one central location and filled in?
I ask because my father was attached to HMS Boscawen at Portland, Dorset whilst serving on the minesweeper HMS Fancy until February 28 1945 and then on the very next day 1 March 1945 is shown as being attached to HMS St. Angelo in Malta, again serving on the same minesweeper HMS Fancy that had been sent to join the 19th minesweeping flotilla for the operations to clear mines from the Meditteranean.
HMS Fancy could not reach Malta that quickly ie overnight?

Any wisdom will be gratefully receved.
Many thanks.

Best regards,
Steve

 

The records were passed between Accounting Bases. The dates given show which Base was responsible for maintaining the Service Records and the P&V Ledgers. They do not indicate the location of the ship.

Tim

 

Thanks Tim.
That's what I was thinking but good to get confirmation.
HMS Fancy was obviously sailing south for Malta prior to 1 March 1945 ie during late February.

Another detail addressed thank you for replying.

Best regards,

Steve

 

Out of interest, would the rating carry their service record with them personally, to hand over to the next Accounting Base? ie When the ship arrived at St. Angelo in Malta having sailed from England?