Is my great great grandmother's CWGC entry correct?

Ah! Good point. Actually, now you've said that I remember that I have found myself unconsciously typing Reddington many times in this thread and have had to correct myself. I can see how that might happen.

Thanks very much,

Chris

 

No Chris - I try to always quote my sources for traceability and my screenshot does so top left (Bing Maps). As good as Google Earth is, it doesn't offer birds-eye views! That said, Bing's are restricted to larger conurbations but luckily we're dealing with one here! Other benefits of Bing are OS mapping up to 1:25k (2½") and better vertical imagery than GE in some places (e.g. Wales).

​

Re my photo analysis, though, I'll freely admit there's plenty of room for doubt - I merely went for the most obvious to start the ball rolling. Having hopefully established that we're looking for a view across a close-boarded fence toward the relatively plain backs of these fore-aft-ridged semis and looking between them for a terrace roof ridge running across beyond them, I can see one further (albeit much trickier) set of possibilities to also explain the 'extra' chimney (close by Mary's left shoulder) if you can make it work. This involves (see unannotated attachment) standing in a garden on the N side of the longer lower leg of Ernest Grove and looking N, through the semis on both sides of Ronald Close, to one of the terrace roofs on the S side of Merlin Grove. What makes this particularly tricky is that the pairs of semis along Ronald Close are staggered, from side to side, in the manner of 'hit & miss' fencing through which it is also impossible to see except from very particular viewpoints. Thus, if the right angle can be found, one of the pairs of semis on the far (N) side of Ronald Close could furnish the 'extra' chimney - speaking of which, the terrace roofs along Merlin Grove being quite short with only 2 stacks (1 very near the hip at each end), you'd need to be looking through to an eastern end stack in order to see enough level ridge to its left ... hard enough to describe and no doubt harder to follow but, unless you can give me a suitable Ernest Grove house # from which to work, I'm pretty much done here.

Re Jessie, BTW, I've knocked together this quick'n'dirty BMD timeline:
* 1887 Q1 - birth index v1c p28 - REDINGTON, Charles William - Shoreditch, Middx
* 1896 Q4 - birth index v1c p62 - REED, Jessie - Shoreditch, London or
1897 Q3 - birth index v1c p516 - REED, Jessie - Mile End Old Town, Middx
* 1919 Q3 - marriage index v1c p356 - REDDINGTON, Charles - Bethnal Gn, London
= 1919 Q3 - marriage index v1c p356 - REED, Jessie - Bethnal Gn, London
(not yet indexed by FreeBMD but page available via their image viewer)
* 1929 Q2 - birth index v1c p276 - REDINGTON, June R - Stepney, London
* 1937 Q2 - death index v1d p225 - REDINGTON, Charles W - Lambeth, London (age 50)
* 1940 Q4 - death index v2a p1811 - REDINGTON, Jessica - Bromley, Kent (age 43)
* 1949 Q3 - marriage index v5e p979 - REDINGTON, June R - Edmonton, Middx
= 1949 Q3 - marriage index v5e p979 - HUMPHERY, Bryon - Edmonton, Middx
* 1953 Q4 - birth index v5e p378 - HUMPHERY, Carol L - Edmonton, Middx
(Hmm, Jessie styling herself Jessica reminds me of a Lily in our family who, full of ideas above her station, pretended her real name was Lillian!)

Steve (or just RG if you must)

 

Hello again Steve,

Well, that's another thing you have taught me, thanks very much. I shall definitely be familiarising myself with Bing from now on.

I should be getting the info from my Mum tonight re the "Official letter of commendation after occurrence in Merlin Grove, 15 November 1940". From what my Mum says, it looks like it might not add to my search. But not to worry, plenty of other avenues to explore that you and all the other kind people on here have given me. And thanks again for finding it, it certainly looked promising!

I spoke to an Uncle & Aunt of mine, and they said that my Nan (Dorothy Drew) lived at 11 Ernest Grove for a while. Perhaps that was where the photo was taken? I am sorry I did not have this information before.
In addition, according to some info on a family wedding certificate, my Nan's mother and father (Walter and Alice Drew), lived at 47 Merlin Grove. This might add weight to the argument that Mary Drew (mother of Walter), was just visiting 103, but my Nan was emphatic that everything was destroyed when a landmine landed on her Nan's house- furniture, other possessions, family tree... everything. That wouldn't have been the case if she was visiting somebody else's house. So I'm thinking that Mary lived in another house on Merlin Grove (an old school friend says 93 or 98). Or in 103 with Jessica as some people have suggested is a possibility. In other words, that the family were spread across three houses in the area. Also, I don't think 47 is anywhere near 103. I dont see how 47 could have got caught by the bomb that killed both Jessica Redington and Mary Drew at 103. Although, perhaps this might add weight to one of your suggestions about the possibility of another bomb. I need to look into this more thoroughly. Please excuse the short response, as I got in late from work! Thanks very much too for the genealogical stuff on the Redingtons. You are very kind.


Many thanks,

Chris

 

This is added in case I am confusing people with all the different names. It was a work in progress and not made for this thread. I will try not to stray off from my original post too far into the genealogical side of things, but include this for clarity. Hope it helps.

 

Yes Chris - I'll settle for 11 Ernest Grove as per the attached new analysis:

​

It's just an annotated version of my 'plan B' screenshot also flagging up 47 Merlin Gr as happening to be included top-R. This time, for a bit more precision, I've marked 4 key features (2 windows & 2 chimneys) on the source photo, guestimated the camera position (circle in rectangle icon) and drawn 4 lines radiating from it to see how the angular spacing between them matches up with the horizontal spacings of the source. And it all fits pretty well except for the 'extra' chimney I mentioned before - the rooftop chimney I'd expected to match across Ronald Cl proving too far left and a line at the compliant angle instead hitting a roof-edge flue (marked '?' with a Google Street View of it inset) which, though probably original, I'd have thought too low to loom higher than the ridge-top stack behind it. You could always try blagging your way into #11's back garden to test the theory though it looks like the trees behind the flue have now grown enough to hide the furthest chimney and thwart a 100% recreation.

As for the letter, it may not directly answer any burning questions but it seems to me you need any & all factual insight you can glean as to what happened on the 15th and I'd at least expect it to say who did what and hopefully precisely where and in what particular circumstances - certainly a different take on events than you so far have from your book and the CWGC. One day you may have enough crumbs to make a loaf but not if you don't have the squirrel instinct to pick them up in the first place. As Sherlock Holmes roughly said more than once about clues, "they mean very little on their own but together ... !"

Steve

 

Thanks so much for going to the trouble of looking at all the different points for me and for producing such an impressive analysis. I have really learnt a lot. I will update with the letter a little later today.

Cheers,

Chris

 

Re the Official letter of commendation after occurrence in Merlin Grove, 15 November 1940".

Bromley Archives seems to have some papers, "lent" to it by a Mrs. Mills, that relate to a Stafford Mills who worked as part of a heavy rescue unit in Penge in WW2. The letter is a short commendation for Stafford Mills' efforts on the night of 15th November. I don't think it gives any direct evidence that would help in my search, although perhaps I should use it as a prompt to investigate the work of Rescue Parties in the area. I include it here for those who are interested. Many Thanks to Steve for uncovering it for me. There are some other papers with it that relate to the V1 in 1944.

"CES/LH Borough of Beckenham
21st November, 1940

Mr.S. Mills
Rescue Party A.4.

Merlin Grove.

The Borough Engineer was pleased to be able to submit to the Emergency Committee a report from the Party Leader on the part you played in reaching and extricating a trapped casualty at this serious occurrence on the night of 15th November. In the final stage of rescue of the live casualty there was room for only one man to work and you used your strength and energies to fine effect. The Committee have recorded their commendation, and the Borough Engineer and myself join in the expression of “Well Done!”

Town Clerk Controller.".

 

There is a photo of Mr Mills at work which was obtained form Bromley Archives, but I am not sure if there would be any copyright issues in reproducing it here. I don't want to put the forum at any risk?

 

Well at least we now know who rescued Jessie (and maybe found Mary) and some ARP unit IDs that may prove useful if Bromley still have those particular records amongst their small accessions - which list ...
"266 World War II: ARP Wardens Post B10: Log books & Certificates [Bromley] 1940-45
"267 World War II: ARP Post 2 Sector 18, Crofton, Orpington: Log books 1939-45"
"702 World War II: ARP Post 34: Scrapbook of air raid [Beckenham] 1939-1945"
... though item 267 seems to definitely cover the wrong area.

Incidentally, since you mention the (16 Jun '44?) V1, just to make sure you've found ...
* V1 & V2 Incident logs Beckenham
* All V2 Rocket Attacks Map
... which curiously disagree on the date of the only V2 to have fallen near Merlin Grove - respectively as follows ...
* "Date" - "22/02/1945" / "Time" - "11:21" (24hr clock used so daytime)
* "Beckenham" - "“Incident Number 840 @ 11:22 on Wednesday 21 February 1945″"
... and therefore teach us the wisdom of seeking out original data sources rather than these 2nd hand accounts of which one must be inaccurate - possibly even both!

Still, the main task remains to verify who lived where ... re ownership, of course, you could always pay the Land Registry for historical 'proprietorship register' data but that might only unhelpfully get you the landlord's name.

Steve

PS: Sorry but, like a dog with a bone, I couldn't leave the garden photo mystery hanging - I'm therefore glad to report now being 100% satisfied that it was taken at 11 Ernest Grove. A more precise analysis (attached*) reveals #7's flue to be slightly off-line and therefore definitely a red herring after all. The proper 'extra' chimney line (in yellow), however, passes right through where #8's flue would have been prior to #8's upward extension - other such flues still existing (ringed in green) at #s 12 & 3 lending weight to my assumption that these were standard features. And being that much nearer the camera (maybe ~8' lower than it), of course, #8's flue would have easily loomed that much higher to seem higher than the far terrace's stack and dispel all remaining doubt about any of #7's. QED - or so I trust!

​

* I've cropped it to shrink the PNG version below the 2MB file limit - so as not to finally leave you with one of those horribly muddy 8-bit GIF alternatives. In case you're wondering why I didn't go to such lengths before, let's just say it additionally involves accurate rescaling of the reference photo and 'layer' editing.

And, in case you're interested, the photo was apparently taken after 1933 - ref. attached OS map sequence c/o Old Maps:
1933 25" , 1938 6" & 1954 25"

 

Very true! Thanks very much indeed for all those extra useful leads.

With regards to the V1 & V2 bombs, I had seen the first website you mentioned, but not the second. I couldn't access directly from your link so had to google it. I think this was the site you were referring me to?


I was not aware that a V2 had landed near Merlin Grove at all. thanks very much again. I had only heard of the V1 in 1944. See below from the first site:


I cannot thank you enough for all the work you have also done with No. 11 Ernest Grove. Not only is it very, very interesting, but is very impressive. Thanks a lot for going to so much trouble. Likewise the OS maps. Many thanks indeed.

Chris

 

It's curious my V2 map link didn't work for you - did you try pruning the URL back to root level (WWII V2 Rocket Attacks)? I don't know what site you've got there but here's a stitched screenshot of the map I meant - complete with the info pop-up I quoted:

​

If you're really locked out, perhaps I'd best paste the intro page body here:

We recently obtained copies of all the documents in AIR 20/4126 – “Big Ben”: Enemy long range rockets: list of incidents, September 1944 to March 1945 from The National Archives, Kew. On the following pages you will find our interpretation of all the data we have collected so far:



September 1944
November 1944
January 1945
March 1945



October 1944
December 1944
February 1945

We would like to suggest that you take a look at the excellent website compiled by Stephen Hendon: www.flyingbombsandrockets.com​

Talking of digging around, have you tried searching the Bromley archive for 'Drew'? - I suggest you do so if not ...

And, of which more anon, have you found:
* Beckenham History ?
* Beckenham History Forum ?

Googling for more accurate timing of the building of the Eden Park estate also led me to:

• History of Eden Park and Monks Orchard (@ Beckenham History) - paragraph 11:
  
  (bolds theirs but colour mine for more topical emphasis - Merlin for local birdlife?)
  
• Here's a partial London Gazette timeline of Messrs Clout & Tysoe - the builders:
  1921-06-24 - London Gazette p5033 - transfer of title 251670 to Clout, Tysoe & Tysoe (earliest found)
  1928-03-13 - London Gazette p1867 - registration of ''Land in Croydon Road'' by Clout & Tysoe Ltd
  1930-05-06 - London Gazette p2807 - registration of ''Land in Eden Park Avenue'' etc by Clout & Tysoe Ltd
  1930-10-24 - London Gazette p6498 - registration of ''Land in Eden Park'' by Clout & Tysoe Ltd
  1937-04-10 - London Gazette p2397 - voluntary winding-up of Clout & Tysoe Ltd
  1937-04-13 - London Gazette p2405 - voluntary liquidation of Clout & Tysoe Ltd
• The London Gazette also carried personal notices but not for any surname* or address I'm aware of interesting us - though, just in case you can spot a potential family connection amongst them, please see View attachment LG personals.zip
  * Presuming the 1943 ROHR-to-REED name change to have been merely coincidental - nevertheless included in the attached list
• Glanfield Road | Beckenham History Forum further tells us, amongst other things, that Riley & Glanfield were actually the architects - so presumably the ones to really thank or curse for those quaint flues that dogged the latter stages of my photo analysis!
• NB: Complaints about the new London Gazette website seem justified as neither their own search engine nor Google (using 'site:www.london-gazette.co.uk' as 1st search term) could find all the pages I eventually got by using both of them
• I had entertained hopes of gazetted Land Registry notices charting the history of house ownership but not so for some reason and Bromley's online planning database goes back nowhere near far enough to be of real alternate use

And, while I seem to be doing a mini 'brain dump' here, you may also like this set of Google Earth placemarks ( View attachment 1940-11-15 - Bromley.kmz ) flagging up known addresses with CWGC casualty #s (black blob = 0). Please note, should you switch to the 1945 imagery however, that it's not properly aligned at the moment. I began by aligning the placemarks to the 1945 picture (where the HE bomb seemed to belong in the centre of the very obvious white blast circle) but then thought better of it as possibly being misled by later V1 damage - which, as your 2nd attachment amply shows, can't be located with any degree of accuracy.

Steve

Edit: typo correction

 

Hello Steve,

I don't know what to say, an absolute mine of ideas and exciting avenues to explore. I am indebted to you. Thanks again.

I agree that my "WW2 V2 Rocket attacks" link problem is weird. I tried to prune it back, but I kept getting this message:
"Access Denied -The source address of this connection is considered as malicious please try another site to practice your mischief."
Not sure exactly what that is about!! Perhaps its something to do with their security and my location? Very good of you to include the body.

Fantastic idea with the local history forum. Ill try and join them straight away and see if anyone knows anything. I never thought there would be a forum for such comparatively specific interests. And Ill search for "Drew" in the archives as well. Although in the past, when doing genealogical work with the Drews, I often got a ton of search results to wade through with the Drew surname. Things like "...and the chairman drew everybody's attention to item number 5 on the agenda..." :P It could uncover something quite valuable though, so I will get on to that. (I have make a checklist of all the advice you and others have given me and its a very impressive list of things to do).

My Grandfather had his own building business in Bromley at the time. I wonder if he was involved at all, or knew the builders. I will see if I can dig anything up there.

I'm sorry, I cant see the Google Earth place marks either (and the title is so interesting!). You are going to get annoyed with me and my computer problems soon! Its just, often when there's a problem with my computer- because of where I am- the error box (or whatever), comes up in Japanese and I'm damned if I can work out how to fix it.

I am going to study this a little bit more tonight, using the information you have given me.

Many thanks,

Chris

 

Hello,

Sorry, I took a while getting back on this. I have finally got hold of the death certificates for my great great grandmother and her 'neighbour' Jessica Redington. Please see attachment:



There are still many avenues I have to explore. Also, there are still quite a few possible permutations as to how to interpret the evidence that I have so far. Many people have given very plausible explanations as to what might have happened. However, one thing that I note from the certificates is that my great great grandmother's abode is not given as 103 Merlin Grove. The DC only states that she died there. I wonder where the CWGC got the information that Mary Drew was "of" 103 Merlin Grove? I wonder whether there was an assumption made (unconscious or otherwise), or whether perhaps there was just simply some transcription error (all possibilities that people have suggested). As I understand it, the CWGC make their commemorations based on info from the local authorities. However, from the evidence on the DC it does not look like it was the Town Clerk/Beckenham Urban District that told the CWGC that Mary Drew was "Of" 103 Merlin Grove, merely that she died there.

I think the next thing is to simply ask the CWGC (as dbf suggested a while back). I hesitated as I knew the CWGC was very busy getting WW1 records digitised at the time, but think I will simply make an enquiry to them before ordering any more documents. Just thought I would update the thread with further details.

Cheers,

Chris

 

Hello Owen,

Thank you very much for taking the trouble to look up my post and to add this.
I am a little confused though, does that mean someone (presumably a Pat Manning), tried to post here or send me a message, but that it ended up being sent to your good selves, the Mods?

I'll order the book and also look into the book of casualties. I wonder if it is the same resource that is available as 'UK, WWII Civilian Deaths, 1939-45"...

Many thanks again,

Chris

Note: I have a little more information to post very soon from CWGC and from the 1939 Register. Apologies, have been snowed under at work.