Hi All, After getting a new RAF book about 196 Sqn which involves Market Garden... I saw three names of this crew which I didn't know about turns out they were killed in action when the plane crashed into high ground around the LZ.... The Missing Crew are Sergeant Gerald Kerton 1131686 Sergeant James Turreff 937748 Flight Sergeant Cedric Albert Willianson 1084486 Air file states PIlot Nav and R/G returned Dakota... Can anyone add more to this story ??? Regards Tom
The fuselage of LK 142 is on display at the Musée du Terrain d'Aviation in Vraux France. Picture of it here: http://www.aviationmuseum.eu/World/Europe/France/Vraux/Stirling.htm The following from Though Without Anger : Losses of Transport and Special Duty Aircraft and Assault Gliders 1940-1945 by Colin Cummings p. 422 Cheers Mark
Hi Mark. Thanks for the link interesting one this one maybe last plane of this Sqn on MG..... Cheers Tom
And why do you think it is Market Garden related!! It went on NIGHT flight!, and the fuselage is now in FRANCE!,
Yes and so were many others, but TomTas is saying that it went down at Arnhem, which is cleary not correct.
One of the reasons of this forum is to answer the best we can with the correct details of ones request for help. Posters do not always get it right first time, thats why they are asking for help, as they are going by the details they have gleaned from other sources and stand to be corrected, as in this case.
From the following: http://www.raf38group.org/196squadron I think the key to the location might be in the note that the plane "was off track" and the crew was "confused" noted in Cummings' book.
I agree with Stamp that there is obviously something wrong with the reported circumstances of this crash. Whilst I agree that the ORB states that it was an Arnhem VI resupply mission - but they took off at 21:10 on the 24th September and the rest of the Squadron flew the Arnhem V1 resupply mission the previous day, at about 14:00 in the afternoon. As far as I'm aware all the Arnhem resupply missions were by daylight. Also the three dead crew members are now buried at Choloy Cemetery in France some considerable distance from Holland. The casualties from all other resupply crashes in and around Arnhem were buried close to where the plane came down - according to the reports the plane crashed into high ground near the DZ so it would be reasonable to expect that they would be buried in Holland. I tend to agree with Stamp's inference that this was a possibly Resistance/SOE resupply drop to France and that the ORB is incorrect John
Danger of adding 2+2 to give 5 here. The final crash location is given by the Form 1180 and the Form 412 Court of Inquiry as near Verdun. The ORB states that the aircraft was tasked with Market VI. Only two aircraft are shown as taking off on the 24th on the night drop for Market VI. LJ835 took off at 21:20 hrs and returned safely at 02:10 hrs. The ORB goes on to say that the aircraft "Crashed into high ground close to the D.Z." Compared to the number of aircraft listed from the squadron on Market VI on the 23rd only two aircraft suggests something different. The Form 1180 is dated 24th and gives a crash time at 23:25 hrs after 1hr 30 mins flight time so this suggest a take off time of 21:55 hrs - quite some time after LJ835. So either LK142 hit the ground at the DZ near Arnhem and continued flying to eventually crash near Verdun or it was on another supply dropping op to the Verdun area and crashed near the designated DZ in this area. I'm inclined to say another Op based on the suggestion that only two aircraft from the unit tasked with dropping and the lack of time up recorded. Ross Edit Monthly summary for 24th says: Operations. 3 laid on. New crews. 1 failed to take off, a/c u/s. 1 missing - F/Sgt Draper.
Whne checking several books including RAF at Arnhem it said on page 110 that only 4 DAKOTA's made a supply flight to Arnhem
Hi All, Yep its starting to look at way John, why on earth would they fly at night ??? I think it could be a mistake on the ORB.... Anyway stamp I didn't in fact say it crashed in Arnhem and Thanks Peter for pointing that out...I was stating what was on the ORB... Cheers Tom.. John just checked the Kew file your right why the time difference the same Sqn took off at 14.10 and yet 2 took off at 21.10...I ve checked Stirling File Air Briain that states Arnhem for LK 142 and yet The Stirling Bomber Michael Bowyer states France SOE
Hi All, Interesting that even the 38 Group History states that this aircraft crashed after trying to re supply.... 'MARKET VII', 23 & 24 September ('MARKET VI' had been cancelled because the weather was too poor). On 23rd, 13 aircraft took off for a more re-supply operation of troops. One aircraft, LJ949, was flak damaged and didn’t return. The drop of LJ949 had been successful but the Pilot, F/O Sparks, and the Wireless Operator/Air Gunner, F/S Herring, were injured by flak so the plane had to make a safe crash land at Leende. Finally, on 24th, 3 aircraft took off but couldn’t succeed in their re-supply drop. F/S Draper’s Stirling IV LK142 was damaged and couldn’t return to base so he had to crash land in France. Cheers Tom
Tom There's other errors in the 38 Group history that you will see if you compare it with the ORB. For example the cancelled re supply operation that he refers to as Arnhem VI was initially set for the 22nd September when 13 planes were marshalled but failed to take off. These 13 aircraft then took off for that resupply mission (still shown as Arnhem VI in the ORB) on the 23rd. There is no mention of any Arnhem VII resupply missions in the ORB so where or why these have been introduced is beyond me Also look at the location of Choloy in France and compare it with Arnhem. If the aircraft simply "clipped" instead of crashing into "high ground" near the DZ at Arnhem (Do they mean Westerbouwing?) he then flew across Belgium where there were numerous airfields where he could land, across Luxembourg and well into France before crashing. It doesn't make sense. I remain convinced that this aircraft did not go to Arnhem but was on a resupply mission to Resistance/SOE/SAS in France. The entry against the 28th (the next mission in the ORB) suggests that the writer was getting used to writing "Market Garden" as it seems that he had started the commentary with these words but then erased them. You will see that the Squadron had then returned to Resistance/SOE/SAS resupply missions John
You stated that after reading a book, not the ORB, but lucky that Horsapassenger picked it up allright, and glad there are some other books then the one you picked up, that have better info.
I am glad to see that in my absence from the forum that the mere mention or suggestion of Arnhem still gets chests puffed out with dueling pistols at the ready
Stamp it fact the book was sent to me from Holland, and yes I do also have the ORB as well :indexCANAHAIH:
