Hello all, A question about the army lists. My father had joined the TA in 1938, to take part as an officer in the OTC of the school where taught. I can find him in the Army lists under TA OTC junior division, as 2nd Lt and the letter (b) beside his name, the date he was commissioned and, as he is the last in the list, the word (Drab.) on the line below. Looking further in the army lists under OTC, it explains that the (b) means he is in section B of the General list TA, but while section A is explained, there is no further explanation of what section B refers to. Can some one explain? Also, What does (Drab.) refer to? Jim
I'm sure some of us would like to see what you have regarding General list TA we could then answer your query regarding Section B. The Army has a number of acronyms so it would be better answered in knowledge of the context of which you are writing. I have a good idea but want to check that I am thinking along the correct lines. Keep it simple and post the documents so that we can see them please.
The B class Commission is use for Officers signed up to UKLF (UK Land Forces) normally used for TAVRA (Territorial Army Volunteer Reserve Association) appointed officers mainly in the Cadet Forces. UKLF was a UK only appointment with no obligation to serve abroad. The Wartime TA had a similar appointment, mainly for older men or lesser medically fit, who manned the unit HQ's and 2nd Line units on the Home Front. In 1939 Colonels of Regiments could appoint their officers using Field Commissions. Whilst the candidates were required to pass the Higher level School Certificate ( at an appropriate pubic school, college or university) they were also trained in their College OTC to Army Proficiency Cert A. Which included Orientation, Skill at Arms and Fieldcraft. By 1941 Officer Cadets had to attend an appointed interview selection board then attend an OCTU Course (Officer Cadet Training Unit) for specialised training. "Yesterday at short notice I journeyed to Halstead to a fine old Georgian Mansion named Dynes Hall and was given the once over by the Command Board. It was a particularly gruelling day. I had to get up and six and then run for a bus without breakfast to get there in time. Then once arrived (after a walk of four miles from Halsted) I was kept standing outside until 4 o’clock in the afternoon (with an hours break for lunch) before I was called in. The interview itself was a simple affair. The General who was president shook hands very fervently and observed that he had once known an old gentleman who used to go shooting with him many years ago. For a moment my heart leapt up but it turned out this gentleman lived in Kent. From there we progressed to equally trivial topics and I was dismissed apparently ok’d. So now I await my call to an OCTU". 123 OCTU Catterick "The trouble here has been where to put everything, as locker space is being limited and it being necessary that nothing at all be left under or behind the bed. This means absolute and strict tidiness unless one is to have a locker like a box from a jumble sale. As an example of the space required, shortly after we arrived we were issued with a pile of 25 or more military books and pamphlets all of which must be instantly available from said locker. This last week has knocked us well and truly into the routine of the establishment and I for one have just about achieved top gear". (Lt Beadle 67 Field Regiment) Edit I think that Drab refers to Duplicate record attached but would need to see the original.
Doubt it’s a lack of interest…..more likely lack of knowledge amongst the membership about the minutiae of OTC regulations.
War Office Selection Boards - Wikipedia Ronald Forbes Adam - Wikipedia Sir Kenneth Jupp Kt MC Member of the War Office Army Selection Board
Where did you spring from T ? Thought I deleted that. Given it a shot as I am surprised there aren't more here with B class Commissions. I thought there were a few a while ago. Not much on line re WW2 only the 1978 papers.
Reviewing your original Post. It is not clear if he was a Cadet with an Officer rank which could explain the b (boy) or an adult instructor 2nd Lieutenant (member of staff). I think that I have answered your question regarding the B Class Commission. Which is possibly the same today. The OTC (Officer Training Corps) was similar to the CCF (Combined Cadet Force) which might still function in some Schools. The Schools had their own .22 rifle range and some had 50 yard full bore ranges. Officers were required to attend Firing Range courses with Regular Army CTT (Cadet Training Teams) after which they would acquire their second pip as Lieutenant. The Officers were members of staff (teachers) with interest in things military and adventurous training. The ACF Army Cadet Force functioned in WW2 many of whom joined the Home Guard and later the full time Army. They were staffed by adult Officers and NCO's many of whom had previously been in the Army. The ACF can boast of having one of the most decorated soldiers in WW1 William Coltman - Wikipedia
After a bit of a struggle I finally got logged in again. thanks for your replies, Uncle Target, that gets the first part answered. I have tried to upload example as photos and as .pdf, but so far unsuccessfully, I’ll have to look and see what I’m doing wrong - equally it could just be my useless internet this evening. My father was a 2nd Lt in the OTC of the school where he was teaching. I’ll have another go at uploads shortly
Thanks Tullybrone The link interesting - but quite a lot of pages. It appears Group B is almost the same as Group A but with the proviso of a fitness and age requirement. it also seems that Groups A and B officers in the CCF etc take precedence after equivalent officer in the TA. The document is current - would it be fair to assume the same applied back in the late 1930s?
The B Class Commission is lesser than the Territorial Amy Class A OTC,CCF and ACF were junior organisations for young people prior to joining up. Completely voluntary part time throughout the war. As a Regular Army Officer once told me, "Don't think you're for real, If a war breaks out, you're job will be handing out sandwiches to the embarking troops at the railway station". As Army Cadets in the 60's a statement like that would have caused a riot. We KNEW we were for real. TAVRA no longer exists. All that I could find in a quick look: Outside bodies - Reserve Forces and Cadets Association for Greater London - formerly TAVRA
Just read your forms posted on #9 This is Definitely a Cadet Force application form. a) clearly states that it is to join a unit Affiliated to a unit of Territorial Army (not the actual TA Unit itself) B and C has no affiliated unit so are general for various units within the organisation. Regular and Wartime Emergency Commissions apply to a specific Regiment mentioned in the London Gazette. You might however find him in the London Gazette General list of Officers Commissioned in the year mentioned on the form. Example of a London Gazette entry.
So, if B and C are not attached to any unit and instead affiliated to one of the outside bodies, in his case OTC Junior division (university OTC were senior division; school OTC were junior division), did the B class commission include a lower training commitment? I am aware of ACF, CCF, OTC, as I was in CCF at school, but not in the OTC at University. Back in the 1930s, it looks like (public) schools only offered OTC, rather than CCF, perhaps a legacy of the First World War.
Broadly speaking yes there was always a lesser commitment in Schools although I am aware that officers entered service straight from University OCT. B Class were trained part time but A were actually trained full time for War before being posted abroad. It was thought that Officers and men required at least 8 months full time training. But some of the BEF were sent straight to France to train whilst there. When the Germans attacked in May 1940 many simply weren't ready. The 67th Field Regiment had officers with Field Commissions having attended Kings School Worcester (on your attachment). Several entered from Oxford or Cambridge and one from Birmingham University. All rose to Major by the end of the war, two with Military Crosses. Did your father stay in the OTC or go on to be on War Service ? Many schoolmasters fought in the war but some were held back in reserve occupations.
I made an error with your attachment. There are two schools in Worcester with OCT. Royal Grammar mentioned above and Kings School which the 67th FR Officers attended. As with ACF, I assume that schools were adopted by Military units for their CCF Training. Supported by CTT (Cadet Training Teams). OTC (Officer Training Corps) were very different It seems that we are all learning from this thread. If you have more information re your fathers time it would be valuable knowledge for future generations.
He was called up summer 1940, sent to OCTU At Aldershot for a month training September. By this time the Army lists have him listed under the General list, employed. There is no mention of (b). And that is the bit that intrigues me. He is not yet affiliated to any regiment, but has the distinction between A and B disappeared, or is one month at OCTU enough to have him caught up?
It depends which part of the Army he was posted to, the RA OCTU's were longer due to the need to learn additional technical skills. His time in the OTC might have reduced his training. officer cadet training units | WW2Talk Officer Cadet Training Units List of Officer Cadet Training Units - Wikipedia Officer Cadet Training Units - The Royal Artillery 1939-45
Jimbo09, I know you are in good hands here. This is a delayed post as I was away from the Web yesterday. Welcome aboard. There is plenty of knowledge and expertise here. It is vital you add in a post his full name, Date of Birth, Service Number and if known their unit. Members can check their resources and do some online research. Others may be looking now and in the future for them; we regularly have people join who have found a post or thread about a relative. It might be worth checking if there is a local newspaper article about him. Most public libraries have access to the British Newspaper Archive when in the library, not online. I cannot tell if he has appeared here before today. It helps to add a ‘tag’ when you create a thread, only you can do this. It is for the formation / corps involved or a theme like intelligence. Searching tags can identify threads, otherwise it takes a bit longer. Some help via PM next; which is a now four pg. PDF. Also available on: WW2 Soldier Research - Tips and Links for New Researchers (update) Plus: How to Start a new Thread / Edit Post / Upload Image
Updated OCTU List #18 Could you identify which OCTU he went to and reveal which unit he was in during WW2. Aldershot OCTU 1940 = 167 and 168 Infantry 170 Machinegun Battalions 121 Royal Artillery
