VC Kemp, 1st Bn Rifle Brigade POW - 1942

Hi everyone,

I'm trying to find out more about my uncle, Victor Kemp, 1st Batallian Rifle Brigade.
He was aparantly lost early 1942, while on an Italian vessel which was carring him to Italy as a prisoner. I've been told the ship was heading from North Africa, but not sure if this is correct.
Does anyone know where the Batalian would have been at the time, which ship he might have been on, and who sunk the ship?

Are there any lists of who was a POW on which vessel?
Particularly British POWs on Italian ships near the begining of 1942?

 

Thanks Owen,

I may have not worded that first post very well.
Was meaning the whereabouts of the batalian while Victor was still with them, before he was captured.

 

From the Army Roll of Honour 1939-45 database © Naval and Military Press Ltd 2010

Name:Victor KEMP
Rank:Corporal
Initials:V C
Birthplace:Hampshire
Residence:Kent
Branch at death:Infantry
Regiment, Corps etc.:The Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort's Own)
Branch at 01/09/39:
Regiment, Corps etc.:
Number:6918191
Date died:1942
Theatre of war:At sea

 

On another post about British PoW losses On Italian Ships I found this:

It was the Tembien, of the 11,000 names on the Alamein Memorial more than half died in this way. The list is endless.

Tembian, Feb 42 390 lost
Scillin Oct 42 800 lost
Nino Bixio Aug 42 400 lost
Sebastiano Venier Dec 41 300 lost
Loreto Oct 42
Ariosta May 42
Thermopylae Jan 42


All carrying PoWs and All sunk by British subs.

Cheers

MF


Hope this helps with the ship.

Mark

 

On another post about British PoW losses On Italian Ships I found this:



Hope this helps with the ship.

Mark

Thank's, I have had a look into those ships, but how can I find exactly which of the ships he would've been on?
Were there any records made of exactly who was on which one?

 

The RB History's roll of honour gives 31 Jan 42 as his date of death, matching the CWGC's start date. A quick scan through the list also has at least one more death on 31 Jan 42 but also a number on 19 Jan 42 - the ship list only has one sinking in January so something's not quite right.

Found WRECK SITE and their list of Italian ships sunk Jan-May 1942 is attached. Thermopylae isn't listed (possibly because no wreck has been located, but that's only a guess - there are ships on the list with no locations).

 

If he was a PoW it doesn't matter where his Bn was as he was no longer part of it.
Seems he was killed somewhere between 31/01/1942 and 20/05/1942 according to the CWGC.
CWGC :: Casualty Details

or resident PoW expert seems to be away at the moment.
I'm sure someone else can help further.

Moved thread to the POW section of the forum.


Found a L L Gipps who was also 1st Bn Rifle Brigade and was killed between January and May 1942.
I don't know if that's helpful at all?

There seem to be quite a lot of Italian ships sunk in that time. Is it possible for one to sort of dissapear without it being accuratly recorded?

 

The RB History's roll of honour gives 31 Jan 42 as his date of death, matching the CWGC's start date. A quick scan through the list also has at least one more death on 31 Jan 42 but also a number on 19 Jan 42 - the ship list only has one sinking in January so something's not quite right.

Found WRECK SITE and their list of Italian ships sunk Jan-May 1942 is attached. Thermopylae isn't listed (possibly because no wreck has been located, but that's only a guess - there are ships on the list with no locations).


What about 'Fertilla', 30.01.1942 (on Wreck site).
Dosn't say what happened to her.
Is there someone here who is able to have a look at the location?

 

I just visited http://www.schiffswrackliste.de/BRT%201942.htm, and found a listing for a Fertilia, wrecked on 30 Jan 1942, she was an Italian freighter sunk after hitting a mine. I think it says it sailed from Brindisi or was sailing to Brindisi.

The page is in German, and the information I have supplied may be wrong, but position is not supplied.

Hope that helps a little bit more.

 

I've looked at all the links posted here and searched many websites but still don't know what happened.

Found a mention of the 1st Bn Rifle Brigade being at Nile Delta having some respite during January 1942, so I suppose Victor would have been there as well.

 

Sorry about that, but probably no-one here can give you a definitive answer, all we can do is point you in a direction by making suggestions.

Here are some more:

Go to the Rifles Museum or about The Green Jackets Museum in Winchester to see if they can help, get your Uncle's Service Records Ministry of Defence | About Defence | What we do | Personnel | Service Records | Making a Request for Information held on the Personnel Records of Deceased Service Personnel,
visit the National Archives and ask questions there.

Also try Royal Green Jackets Association they may be able to help.

Everyone at these places and here will help you as much as they/we can.

 

From the Army Roll of Honour 1939-45 database © Naval and Military Press Ltd 2010

Name:Victor KEMP
Rank:Corporal
Initials:V C
Birthplace:Hampshire
Residence:Kent
Branch at death:Infantry
Regiment, Corps etc.:The Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort's Own)
Branch at 01/09/39:
Regiment, Corps etc.:
Number:6918191
Date died:1942
Theatre of war:At sea

Looks like he could have gone to France then

 

1 RB only arrived at Suez at the end of November 1941 and got up to the front towards the end of December, so we have a relatively short window of opportunity for him to be captured.

Up until 20 Jan 42 1 RB carried out 'numerous patrols' but no details are given. It's possible he could have been captured during one of these.

On 20 Jan 42 the Germans attacked and the battalion fell back to Msus - Charruba - Mechili - forward to Charruba again - then back behind the Gazala Line. Again, no details are given but it was a fighting withdrawal with many small actions to blunt the points of the German advance and avoid being cut off. 1 RB's losses were four officers, the RSM and around 100 other ranks. The probability is that your uncle was amongst them.

To find out much more you will need to pursue his service record and the war diaries, I'm afraid.

 

Dear KCAT,

The History of the Rifle Brigade by Hastings shows a Corporeal Victor C Kemp being killed on the 31/1/42 at sea.

During January 1942 the 1st Battalion The Rifle Brigade commanded by Colonel Jimmy Bosville were under command of the 1st Armoured Division working with armoured units of the 9th Lancers, the Bays and the 10th Husssars. The battalion had landed at Suez in November 1941 and within a few days the offensive to relieve Tobruk begun. They formed into columns and took up a defensive position at Agedabia.

On the 20th January the Germans began their advance. Lack of fuel and blitzkrieg open space tactics of the Afrika Korps meant that the 1st RB with the 1st Armoured and the rest of the Eighth Army got caught up and withdrew to Msus - the retreat becoming known as the Msus Stakes - and then back to the Gazala Line, where the German advance was held.

The battalion lost four officers, Regimental Sergeant-Major Munday, about a hundred other riflemen and many vehicles.

Hope this helps

Phillip

 

Thank you Philip.
I suppose that would mean he was taken prisoner before the German advance on the 20th?

I have ordered a death certificate so I can obtain a copy of Victor's service records, although I don't imagine they will include many of the details.

 

KCAT, unfortunately the Hastings book does not go that deep, especially for Riflemen. The war diary is the place to look, unfortunately I only have them for the 2nd Battalion. I checked my other books and they only really repeat what i said about the circa 100 Riflemen being captured.

The Jackets of Green by Arthur Bryant says in his book: ".....was the reconstituted 1st Battalion of the Rifle Brigade, a motorised Battalion of the 1st Armoured Division, which, in the summer of 1941 had been sent by the Government - freed from the danger of the invasion by Hitler's attack on Russia - round the Cape to the Middle East. Having reached Suez at the end of November, it took over from the 9th RB in January 1942 under its 44 year old commander, Jimmy Bosville, an MC of the First World War, who had trained it since its formation after Calais.
So it came about that for the second time in a year an untried Battalion of the Regiment stood guard on the far desert frontier while a highly experienced one, 2nd Battalion, returned to Cairo.
The 1st Battalion suffered the same painful introduction to desert warfare as the 9th Battalion a year earlier. With the Germans threatening it with encirclement as they made for the soft-skinned units guarding the British supply dumps, it found itself, with all the other units of the Cyrenaica garrison, involved in desperate race across the desert to avoid being cut off. The Msus stakes during which British. Commonwealth and German units were sometimes inextricably mixed together: "People tacked on to enemy columns in the dark and drove off unscathed when the mistake was discovered". No one in the 1st RB - which thanks to its excellant training escaped with the loss of only four officers and a hundred other ranks - had a more exciting experience than Major Vic Turner, whose vehicle had been knocked out in the early stages of the operations."

Not sure whether this helps, but it is all about picking through the information and slowly building the picture i am afraid.

The RB museum is worth going to, but if you want specific info i suggest you email the archivist with a question, before turning up.

Good luck mate - let me know if i can help further.

Phillip

 

Thank you Philip.
I suppose that would mean he was taken prisoner before the German advance on the 20th?

I have ordered a death certificate so I can obtain a copy of Victor's service records, although I don't imagine they will include many of the details.


You can use the CWGC certificate online as proof of death - Just print the page off:

CWGC :: Certificate

 

This is all very helpful. That part about going around the Cape had been confusing because I hadn't been able to find anything about that. Dad said when he was on HMS Kent, I think it was, that Victor had been onboard looking for his brother, but Dad had been on shore leave or transferred to a warship, so didn't see him. That had always been a bit upsetting as might have been the last time they would have seen each other.

I've just realised I havn't explained that I'm in New Zealand, so unfortunaty can't go and have a look at your museums.