confused and needing clarification!

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by daisy1942, Nov 19, 2019.

  1. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    You have loads of different threads on the forum re this mystery?
    This has completely skewed the research help from forum members who are very good at what they do and have helped many family stories to conclusion and have also found family stories that were just that, stories.

    If you had kept it in one thread there would not be confusion.



    your quote

    "I thank you for your interest. In explaining to you the information I have gained so carefully over almost 40 years of research has helped me clarify in my own mind just how much information I have managed to discover."

    40 years is a long time to look and if you have used specialist researchers who struggle to find the answers then perhaps you need to re-evaluate what you have and document it and perhaps share it on the forum in one place.

    I have absolutely no idea in my mind where you are currently at.

    regards
    Clive
     
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  2. daisy1942

    daisy1942 Junior Member

    Clive,

    When I very first started this research I had only one or two facts and loads of childhood memories my husband had of the stories his Dad told.
    The idea behind each thread was that specific information could be researched at any one time. From the little information I had originally it was not possible to research in a logical and timely fashion. If I had asked for all the information at one time the thread would have become too unwieldy to manage and, in all probability I should not have achieved the results that I have. After all a large part of it does not concern WW2, which I believe is overarching purpose of this forum.

    Daisy1942
     
  3. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    If you look through the forum we deal with all ages and eras that's how the members build info.
     
  4. wibs12

    wibs12 Patron Patron

    I've got a headache :D...... said with a respectful tongue firmly in cheek. Just shows that even when you think your own research is difficult and head scratching, there are plenty of other folk out there who's search is even more complex and problematic. I got completely lost trying to follow all the various bits and pieces so am sorry I can't help, but I really wish you lots of luck in whatever your next steps are.

    Paul
     
  5. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    Hazel I do congratulate you on your perseverance. As I have said before I personally am confused as, it appears are others, and your explanations of how you are arriving at conclusions are enlightening. I have followed your various threads over the years and the main question in my mind is how did you establish that Dominic was in Singapore and then on the Daisy. The Daisy left Singapore with Lt Walmsley as CO, six civilians (who are named) and six naval ratings. Apparently there is no record of Dominic being in the RN so how have you established that he was one of the navy men? In your narrative you say he was on the launch P10 and later identified by S/Lt Lammert, the CO. However this identification must have been at least 45 years after the event and could be questionable. How certain are you that this was not misidentification? I have come across cases where son's cannot identify their father let alone somebody else.There is also a discrepancy in your narrative as Lt Walmsley's account is that he and the MD of Hammer & Co went off on P10 leaving the crew still on board Daisy and that later P12 (not P10) went back to collect Daisy's crew, so it would appear that Dominic (if he was there) was not on Frank Lammert's boat. P10 and P12 did meet up later.
    All explanations as to your conclusions will help Forum members to help you.

    Tim
    PS. Your question re desertion of Michael Joseph Casey is on his RA Attestation at #12. It is a faint note so you may have missed but it reads 'Deserted 4/7/41'. It also shows that initially he was posted to Coastal Defence AA.
     
  6. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    I will have another go .I`m thinking out loud here

    If he was a member of the US Coastguard ..he had to be a US Citizen or a nationalised USA Citizen (Its in their enlistment criteria) to be an officer ? If this is true could this be why no Birth Certificate can be found ? Because he`s American ?

    Your Questions About Joining The Coast Guard Answered

    (I bet this question has been asked previously hidden in another thread?)

    If he`s not American how can he enlist in their coastguard? Thats an officers uniform isnt it? Even enlisted men had to be Native or resident aliens (No Clive not Martians and dont put up a photo :) )

    [​IMG]

    Kyle
     
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  7. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Oh ..Looking at the photo again ................that isnt a US Coastguard cap badge is it????

    Coast Guard badge below

    [​IMG]

    It looks more like .....
    [​IMG]

    A US MERCHANT MARINE BADGE ! and would that sleeve rank be an engineer???

    Kyle
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  8. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    Hazel,
    Have you tried for his Coastguard Records, which are held here:
    Personnel Records, Muster Rolls & Genealogical Research
    Military Personnel Records (U.S. Coast Guard officers separated after 1928 and enlisted personnel separated after 1914):
    If you would like to obtain copies of your own or a relative's Coast Guard service record (and they served in the Coast Guard sometime between 1914 to the present if they were enlisted or 1928 if they were a commissioned officer), which contains dates of service, station and cutter assignments, as well as medals and awards earned, you will need to contact the National Personnel Records Center, Military Personnel Records (NPRC-MPR). Please see their website at the following URL:
    http://www.archives.gov/st-louis/archival-programs/index.html
    Or write to them directly at:
    National Personnel Records Center, Military Personnel Records (NPRC-MPR)
    National Archives & Records Administration
    1 Archives Drive
    St. Louis, MO 63138
    Phone: (314) 801-0800

    I note from the website that: Records with a discharge date of 1957 or prior are archival and are open to the public.

    Tim
     
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  9. daisy1942

    daisy1942 Junior Member

    Hi Tim,

    As you have gathered, nothing with Dad is every easy! However, I can have a stab at the explanation. Be warned it will appear bizarre!

    My husbands father, saw a map of an old board game one Christmas when he visited him. Realising it was a war game based on the Pacific War her took a closer look at the map. Pointing to Singapore, he said he had been there in February 1942 and was on one of the last boats to escape on a water boat was called Daisy. He said it had been comandeered by the British Army to help evacuate as many as possible from the harbours to larger ships sitting outside Singapore Harbour ready to sail.

    We rang the British Admiralty Library to see if we could prove his story. Frankly, the person we spoke to felt we were nuts and as he went across the office to investigate the records, I could hear him singing softly "Dasiy, Daisy, give me your answer do...." Some five minutes later he returned to the phone somewhat embarrassed and admitted that very briefly the water boat Daisy was indeed seconded to help in the evacuation. To this day, I regret asking for him to copy the records and send them to me. This is such a valuable piece of information!

    Fast forward to the next breakthrough. I have a picture of Dad in US uniform together with a man in what appears to be the uniform of the Wavy Navy. I contacted the RNVR Association and told someone there Dad's story. He was fascinated and asked me to put together a short written document for him giving details. To my surprise, he printed this verbatim, in the next quarterly magazine. This has to have been one of the highlights of our search, It put us in contact with several men who had escaped around the same time as Dad. This included Sb Lt Lammert (P10), Sb Lt Milne (P12), a man who was on board Exeter (from memory) and several others. A series of letters and telephone calls were made to these men. Sb Lt Lammert requested photographs as he felt that would aid his memory. We sent photos of Dad taken on his wedding day in January 1943 and one of him in US Coast Guard uniform taken circa mid 1943. He recognised Dad from these photos and described him as "keen, active and a great help with the engines". You are correct in that Lt Walmsley's account states the crew were picked up by P12 not P10 but Sb Lt Lammert's own narrative has it the other way around. In Gerald Manning McMahon's account the following names are given as being on board Daisy: W. H .Walmsley (often styled as Captain or Harbourmaster), John Dyce, of Medical Hall, J. G. Stewart, Peter Black Purvis, ?? Campbell of Gatty and Bateman. Also he mentions one P.O. and 5 other ranks ( a different report mentions these men as six O.R.s). the accounts I have were sent to me by the kind generosity of Jonathan Moffat who has written several books on this period.

    From these accounts we can trace Dad's journey across Sumatra to Emmerhaven. There most of the men mentioned in the accounts were evacuated on board a ship called Duijmaer Van Twist (there are several spellings of this). I have a partial passenger list for this ship. In Java, the bulk of the people on Duijmayer Van Twist transferred to MV Zaandam, which arrived in Perth 6/3/1942. Sadly, Dad's name does not appear on either list under Stringer or Casey.

    I cannot trace his movements at all, until he arrives in Barbados around Christmas 1942 and met my husbands mother. They married in Bridgetown Cathedral 30/1/1943. Again, through a piece of hard work and a postcard to Dad that survived the war and was found in his possessions after his death, I was able to trace the man (Ken Simpson) who was responsible for Dad signing up with the US Coast Gaurd. I understood from Ken (although I have never been able to prove) Dad arrived in Trinidad after being rescued from a torpedoed ship. As the ships that Dad was employed on in US uniform were both Panamanian registered their records are proving elusive.

    I have tried to ascertain if records of the evacuations from Emmerhaven survive and where they might be today. Equally, it appears that Trinidadian and Barbadian records are very thin on the ground too.

    Finally, I am curious to know where you read Walmsley's account?

    Daisy1942
    (Hazel)
     
  10. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Blimey this sounds more and more like Uncles Alberts experiences "during the war"


    keep us updated like that . In a time line it makes more sense or not.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
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  11. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Hazel,

    I know I read somewhere that you had taken your photograph to the US Embassy who stated it was coast guard but it isnt ,Sorry its US Merchant Marine (Engineer) and I know this has been pointed out before by others,elsewhere!
    If Dominic wasnt American he couldnt be a Coast Guard officer? The Uniform is not Coastguard It`s a myth which is leading you way off course.
    I know you told Simon (High Wood) that you had letters with `original posting and censorship markings` Sorry but all this means is he posted them there. I have a bundle of letters my Grandfather sent home from various Military ,Raf ,Army and Navy establishments and it would be easy to assume he was stationed here or part of that unit he wasnt he was a Civvie telephone engineer working contract work for the MoD and living on site but used the field post office or whatever it was then to post his mail home. :(

    Kyle
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  12. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

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  13. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    The records are on Ancestry.com which is a different subscription rate and access to records held on Ancestry.co.uk which I guess many will have access to

    Just trying to make that clear in case access is denied for whatever reasons :rolleyes::unsure:

    TD
     
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  14. Hugh MacLean

    Hugh MacLean Senior Member

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  15. wibs12

    wibs12 Patron Patron

    Screenshot 2019-11-22 at 19.03.07.png Screenshot 2019-11-22 at 19.02.43.png Screenshot 2019-11-22 at 19.03.07.png Screenshot 2019-11-22 at 19.02.43.png
    Just done this search in the U.S., Merchant Marine Applications for License of Officers, 1914-1949 catalogue..... can't face reading everyhting so couldn't work out definitively who I was meant to be searching for so searched for a Stringer and a Casey to cover bases....... don't think the results help. If I searched for the wrong thing, let me know and I'll have another go....

    Screenshot 2019-11-22 at 19.03.07.png Screenshot 2019-11-22 at 19.02.43.png
     
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  16. daisy1942

    daisy1942 Junior Member

    Hi Tim,

    Over the years I have tried various ways to get into the US records. For a long time post WW2 they would claim "Sorry, but the records you are seeking were destroyed by fire". As I understand it, an American researcher way back investigated this and came to the conclusion that there had been a fire at every archival centre across every state in America! When he investigated further he was told (quietly) that it was a policy to prevent too many UK people born illegitimately to US servicemen seeking US citizenship. I have no idea if there is any truth whatsoever in this, however from my own experience I have been told that records were destroyed by fire and on other occasions the US records have never bothered to answer me.

    That said, I try contacting US archive centres every few years or so. Yesterday I received an email to which the voyage record cards for WELLANDOC were attached. Further, he gave me information on a new address to contact the US Coast Guard records. My search continues.

    Hazel
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
  17. daisy1942

    daisy1942 Junior Member

    I know the feeling! The more information i find out the more it seems like a "Boy's Own" story!
     
  18. daisy1942

    daisy1942 Junior Member

    Hi Wibs12,

    Many thanks for searching that catalogue for me. The names you searched Casey and Stringer are the correct names and I feel proves that the cap badge is not Merchant Marine.

    Hazel
     
  19. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    Either that or he wasn't licensed. Anyway for Coastguard records, see the link in my #48. Note US Coastguard personnel records, for those discharged prior to 1957, are open to the public. The fire you mentioned only affected Army and Air Force records.

    Tim
     
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  20. daisy1942

    daisy1942 Junior Member

    Hi Kyle,

    Can you date these photographs? Having returned to my original research I was told that part way through WW2 the US changed their cap badges as someone pointed out the eagle faced the same way as the German eagle! Certainly looking at some photos on the web this may have been correct.
     

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