Operation Market Garden (The lorry thread)

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by airborne medic, Apr 13, 2006.

  1. airborne medic

    airborne medic Very Senior Member

    Chester Wilmot in his 1952 book The Struggle for Europe stated that just before Op Market Garden 1400 British 3-ton trucks were off the road due to faulty pistons which led to supply problems for OMG. This comment is repeated in Ryan -A Bridge Too Far and Horne - Montgomery The Lonely Leader. Someone I know wrote to Horne questioning this and got a reply stating that he wasn't sure where this piece of information came from! I personally wouldn't be happy putting a fact in a book without being 100% happy with it.
    Does anyone on the forum know if this figure of 1,400 is true or is it another one of these mythical facts that's been serially repeated by authors who fail to carry out proper research like the 'fact' that all the Recce Squadron jeeps failed to get to Arnhem- when in fact 28 out of 32 did......
     
    Owen likes this.
  2. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    I dont know if its a myth but I'm sure someone here will be able to shed some light on it and its a good start for a thread!
     
  3. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    IT is absolute rubbish about the three tonners.. they were a completly reliable truck, ours never broke down and they travelled from Sword to Bremen.

    Wonderful how these authors quote from each others sources. The three tonner was great wagon, we took all ours from Normandy and the Market Garden offensive, Not one broke down, Not even when they drivers were driving from Normandy to Holland in shifts driving almost nonstop with petrol and arms supplies on the RED BAll route.

    Where in heavens name do these stories come from? 1400 trucks broke down, In your dreams mate! its just another anti British fairy tale.
    Sapper
     
  4. plant-pilot

    plant-pilot Senior Member

    And there speaks one who should know :)
     
  5. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    I do know Friend, The three tonner passenger seat has a round opening over head, where the Bren gunner stands with the gun ready for firing. I travelled for miles like that. And bloody uncomfortable it is. or was!
    Sapper Seriously, I thought the story about 1400 trucks breaking down, was so ridiculous that it is laughable.
    believe me. But time after time all sorts of weird and wonderful stories arise.Most of them utter and complete rubbish...Dreamed up by someone that wants to sell a book.
    Sapper
     
  6. Aber

    Aber Junior Member

    Wilmot's source is quoted as:

    'The Administrative History of the Operations of the 21st Army Group p47'

    if anyone wants to look it up
     
  7. plant-pilot

    plant-pilot Senior Member

    The questions to ask are:-

    1. How many 3 Ton Trucks did 21st Army Group have in total?

    2. What percentage of that total is 1400 vehicles?

    3. Would that be a viable percentage of vehicles to have VOR due to normal breakdowns?

    4. If not, does the 1400 include vehicles destryed or damaged by ememy action?

    Now I don't know the answers to these questions, but I would say that if the figure does not represent a viable percentage of vehicles off the road due to breakdown, taking into account Sappers testimony to the vehicle's reliability, and the figure doesn't include vehicles damaged by action, then we can conclude that the fact may have beed grabbed from nowhere in order to make an 'interesting read'. Other possibilities include that the 'fact' has been misunderstood and may have included all trucks, but as it's just as bad to include incorrect information in a factual reference book as to make something up, I'll ignore it here. :mellow:
     
  8. airborne medic

    airborne medic Very Senior Member

    As i started this thread I would like to point out in repsonse to this comment:


    It is not my dreams it's there in black and white in at least three books written by Wilmot, Ryan and Horne...
     
  9. airborne medic

    airborne medic Very Senior Member

    I would like to thank plant-pilot for the sensible reply to my thread. If it helps it is said that OMG from the Dutch border to Arnhem would have involved around 20,000 vehicles. I must check out how many vehicles were in the 1st AB Divs seaborne tail.....I think about 1,000.
     
  10. plant-pilot

    plant-pilot Senior Member

    It is understood that it is there in black & white, but we have testimony from Sapper who was there, that the trucks were very reliable. There are three references to the same figure. That could either mean that it is correct and there were a huge amount of trucks or the figure is wrong and was included in one book and repeated by other authors who took the figure from the book or source which was in error.

    It's not a reflection on you, as with the information you had you asked a very valid question.
     
  11. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Stop and think about it friends! can you imagine for a second a narrow thrust up through Holland, littered with 1400 broken down three Tonners 60 miles...That is 23 broken down trucks evey mile, if that does not convince you? nothing will... Think about it , 23 every mile!

    It is like so many others, utter Crap! as to the three books being the same? Sure, they quote each others books.

    let us look at this in another light,if 1400 trucks broke down just on the Market garden operation, how many trucks broke down during the campaign?

    It is so utterly stupid, and make one wonder what or where, these tales come from. 1400 three tonnesr yet we never lost one...Oddly enough we had some damaged by shell fire, but they were soon back in use.
    Say the Mg lasted a month the the previous 5 months would have produced 7000 broken down trucks. Try to imagine a battle field littered with seven thouands trucks. You can? then how ever did we get fed?
    Its not only tales like this that make me laugh out loud,there are a hundred and one others just as fanciful...And yet there are folk around that want to beleive it..........And do! poor misguided souls.

    Sapper
     
  12. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    If there is a genuine interest in WW2? then at least keep it within the bounds of reality. anyone know how many yards in a mile? OK then see how many yards you can go before coming across a broken down truck, 23 per mile!

    Yet we never lost one, even on the continuous shift driving all the way across France, Belgium, and Holland. We did lose a couple of DRs they got lost, when in fact they were visiting old friends from the 1940s. But they turned up after "finding their way back"

    sapper
     
  13. Aber

    Aber Junior Member

    As I posted above Wilmot's reference is to what looks like an official British Army publication, plus unlike many historians he was around at the time, so I don't think it is a fairy story.

    Also the way I read it, the reference is NOT to 1400 broken down lorries, but to a production problem with a batch of engines installed in 1400 trucks. Given the reputation of the British car industry it is plausible - it is a little harder to do a product recall in wartime!
     
  14. plant-pilot

    plant-pilot Senior Member

    Anyone able to post the exact quote from the book? Might make the problem a little clearer. Rather than us all commenting about hear say.
     
  15. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Amusing...has anyone yet worked out how many yards between each truck being there are 23 per mile. I wonder just what some people would be willing to beleive if it is written in a book. The word gullable comes to mind.
    Sapper
     
  16. Aber

    Aber Junior Member

    "By the start of September all the transport reserves of 21st Army Group were on the road. Imports were cut from 16000 tons a day to 7000 so that transport companies could be diverted from unloading ships to forward supply. This gain, however, was almost offset by the alarming discovery that the engines of 1400 British-built 3-tonners (and all the replacement engines for this particular model) had faulty pistons which rendered them useless. These trucks could have delivered to the Belgian border another 800 tons a day, sufficient to maintain 2 divisions."

    Given that Wilmot was a BBC reporter who landed in Normandy on D-Day by glider and so knows what he is talking about, AND that he references this story to a British Army publication, it probably happened.
     
  17. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD


    That is the point, that particular model.
    sapper, your 3 tonners may have been a different model that was better made.
    Also they weren't breaking down during OMG but the alledged fault was discovered before.
     
  18. plant-pilot

    plant-pilot Senior Member

    1. How many 3 Ton Trucks did 21st Army Group have in total?

    2. What percentage of that total is 1400 vehicles?

    3. Would that be a viable percentage of vehicles to have VOR

    So how many 3 ton trucks did 21 Army Group have? And what percentage of the transport was 1400 trucks? The way it's worded does make it apparent that these trucks were not broken down along the road but probably sat useless in a supply depot somewhere. It might even have been back in the UK but they just weren't available when they were needed.
     
  19. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Ok you should have a broken down three tonner every 76 yards along the highway.
     
  20. ComradeRomain

    ComradeRomain Member

    mmm....to me it sounds more like the shipment arrived and then the fault was found. Probably a manufacturing error, it sounds plausible that way, but when you start saying they all broke down in the middle of fighting, it sounds rediculous of course.
     

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