Pearl Harbor

Discussion in 'War Against Japan' started by Wise1, Aug 30, 2004.

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  1. Millsy

    Millsy Member

    In conversation at American dinner parties does 'Pearl Harbour' rank along side 'politics' and 'religion' as a taboo subject?

    Just a thought.
     
  2. panzerschmuck

    panzerschmuck Junior Member

    In conversation at American dinner parties does 'Pearl Harbour' rank along side 'politics' and 'religion' as a taboo subject?

    Just a thought.

    In general, I find that linking a conspiracy to what happened at Pearl Harbor to be the preoccupation of a few outspoken individuals. I'm sure most Americans would just scoff at the suggestion and rate the debate right up there with "is bigfoot real?"
     
  3. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER Patron

    In general, I find that linking a conspiracy to what happened at Pearl Harbor to be the preoccupation of a few outspoken individuals. I'm sure most Americans would just scoff at the suggestion and rate the debate right up there with "is bigfoot real?"

    Conspiracy theories are similar to "What if's".

    The attack on Pearl Harbor, whilst it cost lives spelt the beginning of the end of WW2. Hitlers declaration of war on the United States put the nail in the coffin of his ambitions for European domination and the Japanese ambitions for an Asian co-prosperity sphere disintegrated 6 months later at Midway.
     
  4. ourbill

    ourbill Senior Member

    In general, I find that linking a conspiracy to what happened at Pearl Harbor to be the preoccupation of a few outspoken individuals. I'm sure most Americans would just scoff at the suggestion and rate the debate right up there with "is bigfoot real?"

    Just shows the rest of the world how selfish the americans are at scoffing at suggestions and debate, a reasoned reply would have been more appropriate.

    I've never read or heard of any declassified documents relating to the US president regarding the bigfoot.
    A conspiracy theory is just a theory like any other theory be it bigfoot, the landing on the moon, the plane crash into the Pentagon on 9/11, but a well researched book by people in rearch of the truth is on a higher level. I suppose one could call 'Watergate' a conspiracy theory at the beginning but not as the truth was known at the end!
     
  5. panzerschmuck

    panzerschmuck Junior Member

    Just shows the rest of the world how selfish the americans are at scoffing at suggestions and debate, a reasoned reply would have been more appropriate.

    I've never read or heard of any declassified documents relating to the US president regarding the bigfoot.
    A conspiracy theory is just a theory like any other theory be it bigfoot, the landing on the moon, the plane crash into the Pentagon on 9/11, but a well researched book by people in rearch of the truth is on a higher level. I suppose one could call 'Watergate' a conspiracy theory at the beginning but not as the truth was known at the end!

    What I meant was the subject would not be taboo at a dinner party and people would take as much insult to bringing it up as they would to bringing up the subject of bigfoot. Maybe it was the word "scoff" that threw you into a tizzy, but I have never seen any hard evidence to support the conspiracy theorists claims and I don't think most people would be convinced. But with statements like "Just shows the rest of the world how selfish the americans are," I guess you are one of those people who has a chip on his shoulder and is always going search for new ways to hate America, so trying to reason with you is pointless.
     
  6. ourbill

    ourbill Senior Member

    Enough said!

    I haven't heard any reasoning yet. I just get a bit upset when I spend time researching something I've read, only to find the subject taboo at the dinner table. OK we'll talk about house prices.
    I'm very pro-USA and have over the years enjoyed their company going back to 1976 when I celebrated your 'Liberation' in Fort Lauderdale and I discovered Wild Turkey in all it's forms.

    I suppose all cousins have a tiff at some time. Plse forgive me if I trod on your toes it was quite unintended.

    The book in question is: Friendly Fire, The secret war between the allies. Written by Lynn Picknett, Clive Prince and Stephen Prior. Published 2005.
     
  7. panzerschmuck

    panzerschmuck Junior Member

    Enough said!

    I haven't heard any reasoning yet. I just get a bit upset when I spend time researching something I've read, only to find the subject taboo at the dinner table. OK we'll talk about house prices.
    I'm very pro-USA and have over the years enjoyed their company going back to 1976 when I celebrated your 'Liberation' in Fort Lauderdale and I discovered Wild Turkey in all it's forms.

    I suppose all cousins have a tiff at some time. Plse forgive me if I trod on your toes it was quite unintended.

    The book in question is: Friendly Fire, The secret war between the allies. Written by Lynn Picknett, Clive Prince and Stephen Prior. Published 2005.

    For the record, my original post wasn't intended to belittle the subject, I probably just worded my response badly. Any subject (particularly involving WW2) is worth discussing. It's all good.
     
  8. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Never seen this picture before:
    A dead civilian in his car killed during the raid on Pearl Harbor
    [​IMG]
    privetletters.net.

    And a few more:
    [​IMG]
    A view of Pearl Harbor during the attack.

    [​IMG]
    Cartoon found in crashed japanese aircraft.

    [​IMG]
    Chart found inside a beached Midget Submarine.

    [​IMG]
    A view of Battleship Row on 7th Dec. 1941
     
  9. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    That is Joseph Adams, who is visible. His son John Adams, and his brother-in-law, Joseph McCabe, are also in the vehicle, dead. The were hit by a falling anti-aircraft shell.
     
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  10. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Cheers for that Jeff,

    So it was a bit of a unfortunate blue on blue?

    I guess without the knowledge its easy to presume that they were straffed by a Japanese aircraft.

    Regards
    Andy
     
  11. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    Civilian casualties were around 48 or so, with youngest being 3 months old. Most were killed by falling anti-aircraft ordinance in and around Honolulu and Pearl City. One, who was of Chinese ancestry and was a security guard, was beaten to death the night of the 7th, when he was mistaken for a Japanese paratrooper. I think I remember 3 Honolulu firefighters were killed by bomb dropped by a Japanese aircraft, while they were fighting a fire on Hickam Field. I don't have any numbers on civilians killed off of a military reservation by strafing Japanese aircraft, but there were reported instances of that happening.
     
  12. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Many thanks,

    One last Q, I noticed where the photo's came from a few of shot down, crashed aircraft plus a beached midget submarine. We're there any POW's?

    Regards
    Andy
     
  13. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    This picture intrigues me, in that it shows the death of two ships.
    One is the Arizona, prominent in the center of photo, seconds after the initial explosion of the forward magazine. To the far right, you can see the after crow's nest of USS Oklahoma as she is healing over to capsize.

    Interestingly enough, the view of this photo is from approximately the same location as Jack's (from WW2F) transport occupied the week prior, when it was in port enroute to the Philipines.
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=16434&d=1241890389
     

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  14. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    This is a poignant picture.

    From the left USS Nevada, USS Vestal outboard of the USS Arizona, USS West Virginia outboard of the USS Tennessee, USS Oklahoma, outboard of the USS Maryland. The stern of the USS Neosho is just forward of the Maryland, tucked between her and the USS California, which is not seen.

    The Nevada has not gotten underway yet, nor has the Vestal. The West Virginia and the Oklahoma are both losing oil and their portside maindecks are already awash. You can see ripples from a recent torpedo strike on the Okie, just aft of the #2 turret.

    I am wondering if Lt. Commander Harper has given the order to flood the magazines yet onboard the West Virginia when this picture was made. Capt Bennion of the West Virginia was mortally wounded not long after this photo was made. The Arizona was just moments away from her destruction, as is the Oklahoma.

    I can only imagine the turmoil, the fear and the determination that must invisible in the picture, but so much a part of the action on that day.

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/attachments/war-against-japan/16435d1241891336-pearl-harbour-battleship-row-7-dec-1941-early-during-attack-above-jpg
     

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  15. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    Many thanks,

    One last Q, I noticed where the photo's came from a few of shot down, crashed aircraft plus a beached midget submarine. We're there any POW's?

    Regards
    Andy

    Yes. I am quite certain that one the midget sub crew was captured, becoming POW #1. Don't know about the pilots.

    Edit:

    found a page on this sailor

    Tom McMahon: Pearl Harbor POW Number 1 Kazuo Sakamaki

    I found a reference to a pilot who crash landed on a privately owned Hawaiian Island
    VDARE.com: 08/08/04 - Breaking News: Japan, Not America, Guilty of War Crimes 60 Years Ago about 2/3rd way down, ignoring all the editorializing.

    I've been reading further. Apparently all Japanese aircrew were KIA, including the one mentioned above, who was killed after he crash-landed.
     
  16. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Cheers Jeff.
     
  17. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    In conversation at American dinner parties does 'Pearl Harbour' rank along side 'politics' and 'religion' as a taboo subject?

    Just a thought.

    I realize that this an old subject, but the answer is heck no.
     
  18. mikebatzel

    mikebatzel Dreadnaught

    I stand ready to be corrected here but was it not the American General Billy Mitchell, who in the 1920s warned of the Japanese threat and predicted
    Pearl Harbour as a scenario.
    I know threre is a great deal on the web about this but I find that to much of the supposed information on the web is not backed up by hard evidence or sources.
    I am very suspicious of much of the military information on the web for this reason.
    Also I remember reading an article in the papers here a few years ago that claimed declassified British documents showed that British Intelligance had cracked the Japanese navel codes and knew that Pearl Harbour was a target and warned America.
    Now shoot me down in flames.
    Yes, Billy Mitchell predicted a Japanese attack on Pearl in his published report advocating air power in 1925 titled Winged Defense

    There was certainly an exercise in the early 30s in which aircraft launched a surprise attack on Peark. What I don't know is how successful it was deemed to be by the umpires of the exercise.

    On February 1, 1933, the U.S. Navy staged a mock attack on the base at Pearl Harbor as part of a preparedness exercise. The attack "succeeded" and the defense was deemed a "failure". I do not see this as a forsight for things to come. Pearl Harbor was not the home base of the Pacific Fleet until May of 1940. To be capable of supporting the command structure as well as such a large fleet I’m sure many adjusutments were made for defense.
     
  19. A-58

    A-58 Not so senior Member

    I realize that this an old subject, but the answer is heck no.
    I'll concur with Jeff's sentiment on the lack of "tabooness" on the Pearl Harbor bombing. With the decay of American education standards, most Americans these days don't know when the War of 1812 started.
     
  20. mikebatzel

    mikebatzel Dreadnaught

    most Americans these days don't know when the War of 1812 started.
    That would be the one that started in 1776 right?

    The topic of the Attack on Pearl is definatly not taboo. Too many people read into the conspiracy theories, and while not believing the theory overall, still pick up some of the misconceptions left behind.
     

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