Tank losses of the 24th Lancers in Normandy – June and July 1944

M. Kenny where are the films you mentioned are they accessible online or via the IWM please.
I can't seen reply with a quote via my phone so hopefully you will see this

 

Shaun,

You can search these by their cat codes: A70 33-3, A70 43-1 , A70 43-2 on the following site : http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/search

None of these (at least at present, at least to me) seems to be available to view online at the mo. else I would have linked to them in post #2 above. But there is always hope with the IWM there.

I was meaning to do a bit of a trawl of youtube though at some point in case something pops up. As some of these films crop up, for example, in some of the Pathe news items from the newsreels of the time, posted there. I've found some really interesting ones of the SRY in the past and some :

Normandy Conquest - are just really worth a watch, and you sometimes see something extra worthwhile in the "up next" box: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5vA7rVE-5k

Sometimes might catch a few new items through here: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=you+tube+Pathe+News+Normandy&oq=you+tube+Pathe+News+Normandy+&aqs=chrome..69i57.5330j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8

A70 33-4 : http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060008456

The cameraman surveys the activity off 'Gold' Beach. Troops, vehicles, tanks (24th Lancers or 22nd Armoured Brigade) and stranded LCTs can be seen on 'Jig Green' Beach west of La Riviere. LST-406 lands engineering equipment and tanks from 693 Road Construction Company RE and the 4th City of London Yeomanry. British troops (1/7th Queens of Royal Engineers) wade ashore from a US Navy tank landing craft. Prisoners - some non-German - bound for England wait to board LST-406 before the tide turns.

A70 43-1 : http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060013188

B 5416 & 5417 were filmed (A70 43-1) as well as photographed 11/6/44 : A padre holds an open-air service for men serving with the 5th Battalion East Yorkshire Regiment in an orchard in St Léger before the battalion returns to the front-line. Sherman and Firefly tanks belonging to the 24th Lancers move 'A' Squadron up towards the village of Audrieu and Point 103 (Le Haut D'Audrieu) in support of 69th Brigade's operations designed to outflank Tilly-sur-Seulles.

A70 43-2 : http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060013189

A70 43-2 Production Date: 13-06-1944 : III. Shermans belonging to the 8th Armoured Brigade (24th Lancers ?), a Centaur 95mm close-support gun, tanks from No 2 Battery Royal Marine Armoured Support Group and a single Austin K5 3-ton lorry proceed along the Bayeux - Tilly-sur-Seulles (?) road to join 50th (Northumbrian) Division's 151st Brigade.


I'll add this one here too as it is just as interesting as the Pathe one above:

British Pathe:
Squeezing Nazis Out Of Normandy Aka Squeezing Nazi's Out Of Normandy (1944)
About 1.35mins in. "Pistol packing momas caught fighting with the Nazi's in a pillbox" it says. Also some slightly historically worrisome comments shortly afterwards by the commentator about an American trying to "iron out a complication" and make some Russians (who had been working in the labour gangs for the Nazi's) understand after they had been captured that they were not going to be executed (at least by the Americans - Rm.)

And some ko'd tanks at about 5.27mins. Mentions and shows Rauray casualties at a first aid / dressing station at about 7mins in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=896sXHxK1UU

 

Rob,
I've done quite a bit of YouTube surfing over the last couple of years. But it's always the same old problem I can never make out any markings or cap badges. So I could be looking at a 24L tank and never know it. The only actual reference to the 24th lancers I found wasn't a video of them but a narrated piece over footage of tanks. The passage was from the medical officer from the 24L straight out of NHL about last few days before D-day all of about 30 seconds but it was still good to hear them mentioned.

 

The best Pathe stuff is the 'unissued/unused' film. This is the complete unedited reels the cameramen shot at the time and sections correspond exactly with the films described in the IWN Film catalogue. Whilst Pathe use the reels unedited they do sometimes stitch full unedited reels together with other unedited reels so you will find for example and unedited reel shot on June 24th followed by an unedited reel for June 20th followed by an unedited reel for June 23rd. You must treat every fade on a film as the start of a new section. The completed newsreels are unreliable as the editing was done by Pathe.
I have just started searching the AP channel on youtube and they also have unedited reels in their collection.

 

As I've just posted on the female snipers thread (!), the tanks at 5.27 are the Sherman and Panther at Fontenay-Le-Pesnel.

 

This is raw footage from EPSOM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRN5_4U8VfI

Note that a US reel of CHERBOURG has been tagged on the end from 5:40

This is also EPSOM raw footage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z0eH3UKpVM

As is this up to 3:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuG9UgudkcY

 

This is again raw footage but edited in a haphazard manner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=896WS2hohC0

It is 6m 36 seconds long.

to 1:47 is A70 46-8 on 14/6/44
to 1:56 is part of A70 46-9 on 14/6/44
to 3:26 is part of A70 46-11 on 14/6/44
to 3:50 is again parts of A70 46-9 on 14/6/44
to 4:48 is A70 46-10 on 15/6/44.
to 6:13 is again part of A70 46-11 on 14/6/44
to 6:36 is again part of A70 46-9 on 14/6/44
They have taken 4 reels of raw footage and split A70 46-9 (infantry marching down a road) into 3 by inserting Monty/Ike/De Gaulle scenes into it. As I said a priceless source of raw footage just as long as you know where they put the edits!

A70 46-8 Production Date: 14-06-1944

I. The cameraman observes from a Taylorcraft Auster/AOP the lie of the land and some of the activity behind 'Gold' Beach between Le Hamel and La Riviere. Of note are the scuttled ships - Corncobs - forming part of 'Mulberry B' a mile or so off-shore, a crash-landed USAAF P47 being examined by British troops, the remains of a shot-down Ju 88, stores dumps and parked vehicles dispersed along hedgerows and in copses and military traffic heading inland.
II. Captured panzer crewmen are escorted into the 6th Battalion Durham Light Infantry's lines outside Verrieres. Infantrymen from the 2nd Battalion Essex Regiment pass a knocked-out 'Panzerlehr' Panther Ausf. A tank near Bernieres-Bocage on their way to reinforce 6th DLI; a CMP utility ambulance from 186th Field Ambulance RAMC makes the return journey. The camera scans briefly the overgrown countryside, ideal terrain for snipers. The Essex's Company CO, Major Elliot, and his tactical HQ personnel observe shells landing on Verrieres from their universal carrier. At an RAP in a lane outside Verrieres, the 6th DLI's casualties and prisoners from the 'Panzerlehr' Division receive first aid before being sent to the rear for further treatment.


A70 46-9 Production Date: 14-06-1944


Infantrymen belonging to the 4th Battalion King's Shropshire Light Infantry (KSLI) march inland along a road through gently rolling wheatfields towards the battalion's assembly area at Cainet shortly after coming ashore at 'Juno' Beach. An Inns of Court Regiment M5 half-track and a motor-cyclist despatch rider heading in opposite directions overtake the procession.


A70 46-10 Production Date: 15-06-1944


I. Air Chief Marshal Tedder, Deputy Allied Supreme Commander, and Air Marshal Coningham, 2nd Tactical Air Force chief, are seen in conversation at 2nd Army HQ at Creully; behind them can be seen Air Vice Marshal Broadhurst, No. 83 Group RAF Commander. Accompanied by Lieutenant-Colonel Russell, General Eisenhower, Allied Supreme Commander, converses with Lieutenant-General Dempsey, GOC 2nd Army. Tedder leaves 2nd Army HQ with his two RAF colleagues. Referring to a map-board, Major Sanderson from 21st Army Group HQ plans an itinerary with Russell, Eisenhower and a US Army officer (American liaison officer at 21st Army Group HQ?). Nearby at 15th (Scottish) Division's HQ, 'Ike' talks to Lieutenant-Colonel Tyler, the division's GSO 1, and Lieutenant-Colonel Kingsford-Lethbridge, the division's AA and QMG.
II. Outside Bayeux at Nonant, 30th Corps commander, Lieutenant-General Bucknall, and one of his staff officers, Major Hastings, receives the two SHAEF commanders and his army commander at his HQ. Dempsey and Eisenhower leave in the same jeep. Back in Creully, Eisenhower, Tedder and General Montgomery stroll through 21st Army Group HQ's grounds in conversation together. After tea, Montgomery bids farewell to Eisenhower who leaves in a jeep driven by Tedder.
Object number: A70 46-10 Production date: 15-06-1944 Production country: GB Notes: See with A70 40-1, 46-11, 49-1 and 2 for footage showing VIPs visiting 21st Army Group HQ in Normandy; Lieutenant-General Hucknall, 30th Corps commander until August 1944, is also featured in A70 43-2. Accompanying Eisenhower on his tour of the Allied beach-head (but not seen here) were the US joint chiefs of staff, General Marshall, Admiral King and General 'Hap' Arnold and their staffs


A70 46-11 Production Date: 14-06-1944



I. At 21st Army Group HQ at Creully, General de Gaulle introduces General Montgomery to General Bethouart, Chief of Staff National Defence, and General Koenig, commander of the FFI; in the background wearing a raincoat is M Vienot, De Gaulle's Foreign Minister. De Gaulle is shown around Montgomery's HQ and first inspects and then addresses troops serving in 21st Army Group HQ's defence company. He and Vienot leave Creully for Bayeux in a 21st Army HQ jeep.
II. Accompanied by a large crowd, de Gaulle, Vienot and Bethouart walk through Bayeux and chat to Resistance workers and ordinary civilians; Colonel Chandon (?) (in British-style battledress) joins the three men at the head of the procession. At the Sous-Préfecture, de Gaulle, with Chandon, Admiral D'Argenlieu, Vienot, Commandant de Boislambert and Bethouart, arrives to install Coulet as Commissioner for Normandy in place of a Vichy-appointed predecessor. Afterwards, de Gaulle addresses the people of Bayeux in the central park. He is bidden farewell by Maurice Schumann as he sets off for Isigny in the 21st Army HQ jeep driven by Major Sanderson.
III. In Isigny, a large crowd gathers to hear de Gaulle speak while US military traffic heads through the battle-scarred town.

 

"m kenny" a lot of work there!

It did make me wonder who invented the phrase "the camera never lies" - I suspect Stalin - and he said it with a very meaningful, and pitiless glare... forbidding any contradiction there.

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/camera-cannot-lie.html

It seems to date back to soon after the invention of film though, and I guess nothing's changed since.
Sounds like the first time(s) it was used too it was meant to be instantly refuted so you are holding up an ancient and honourable tradition there!

I've often wondered (and discussed) if it matters when you can't really tell (from a poor quality print etc) if the person or thing in the picture is really that person or thing that you were "after". I'm pretty sure it does though, so the kind of detail you provide is priceless - so thank you very much!

All the best,

Rm.

 

Evening all.... I'm back as promised with my explanation as to how I found out my grandads tank was called Black Prince.
As I already said the three tanks of 4th troop B Sqdn were "bloody Mary, butcher Cumberland and Black Prince". Lt leathers original had "bloody Mary" but that was damaged possibly by a Panzerfausts and sent off for repairs so Lt leathers took over command of "butcher Cumberland" originally cpl Bamfords tank which had a faulty power traverse so they had to manually traverse the turret. They were then given a brand new tank called "The Ram" but this was to possibly be rather short lived because A and C Sqdn needed it more but Lt leathers decided to give them "butcher Cumberland" instead so keeping "The Ram" for 4th troop. So the only tank that wasnt switched or Damaged early on and wasn't mentioned again by Lt leathers was "Black Prince" so that must have been my Grandads tank. Apparently Black Prince, Butcher Cumberland and Bloody Mary were All photographed before embarkation by the army film crew because they all had a coat-of-arms relevant to their names brightly painted on them. If only I could find them photographs any ideas guys? iwm maybe? My references came from the officers account in none had lancers.

 

I also forgot to say. As to a possible tank loss on the 12/6/44 "The Ram" was hit by a Panzerfausts and although I have not seen it say it was damaged beyond repair the gunner was extremely badly wounded so the damage inside must have been quite severe and I would have thought the Germans would have made a point of putting any damaged abandoned tanks either permanently out of action or commandeered for themselves? Because from what I can make out the Ram was pretty close to the German lines when it was hit so I guess they would have been able to hit it again at some point. Just a guess tho

 

Shaun

The photos you mention are elusive. I understand they were taken at Milford on Sea. When I visited the IWM Photo Library last year and looked up the '24th Lancers' index card they are not mentioned. In fact there are only very few photos attributed to 24L! I think we have to assume they were indexed under a different 'heading'. I will hopefully be visiting the IWM again in the next few months when the quest will no doubt continue!

 

I found a few (far too few, compared to what one might expect?) IWM "items" were listed under "24 Lancers"

Via IWM: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/search?f%5B0%5D=agentString%3A%5B%2024%20Lancers%5D&query=

Via just google: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=IWM+%2224+Lancers%22&oq=IWM+%2224+Lancers%22+&aqs=chrome..69i57.10726j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8

As well as "24th Lancers"

Via IWM: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/search?f%5B0%5D=subjectString%3A24th%20lancers&query=

Via just google: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=IWM+"24+Lancers"&oq=IWM+"24+Lancers"+&aqs=chrome..69i57.10726j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie

Usually my heart sinks a bit when I "see" that an image that google returns is on "pinterest" though as the attribution is often suspect and it's hard to find a particular image on the "pinterest" page that comes up.

BTW, again re. the Polish 24th Lancers, I don't often see them: http://www.network54.com/Forum/433829/thread/1272942539/1/Question+about+Firefly+Vc

But "24th Lancers" or "24 Lancers" as a tag by the IWM or elsewhere ought really to bring this (or similar) up too for instance, assuming that they have anything about the 24th L (Polish 1st Armoured Division) there.

24th Lancers, 10th Armoured Brigade , Polish 1st Armoured Division - 9th November 1944 Moerdijk Holland


Usually it takes rather a lot of lateral thinking and trying a lot of different things to see what might work. As well as being careful to try to exclude what does not.

I agree though somethings are much more "elusive" than you'd expect.

But when you know more about what there might be to look for it's surprising how often something comes up.

I found this one just the other day:

http://www.memorybank.org.uk/search/viewimage.asp?ImageId=1026



General Eisenhower visits 24th Lancers. Arriving at Earlston Station 1944
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earlston_railway_station


And it says "Welcome to the Scottish Borders on the webpage"

Earlston railway station, in the Scottish Borders village of Earlston, was a station on the now disused Berwickshire Railway.There were two platforms (the location served as a passing loop) and two sidings, cattle dock and goods shed. The station closed to passenger traffic in 1948, and the last freight service operated on Friday 16 July 1965. The station closed completely, along with the line, on Monday 19 July 1965.

 

Rob

The Earlsdon Eisenhower photo is of the Polish 24th Lancers.

Eisenhower did visit the British 24L but it was somewhere else (Chippenham Park?...not sure from memory but it's in NHL).

What gets even more confusing is that the Polish 24L were based at Bridlington at one time....where they took over from the British 24L.....

All part of life's rich tapestry!

 

I believe that is Maczek waiting for Eisenhower which would make it 24th Uhlans. The officer stepping out of the train is certainly Polish

 

Yep

Hence, my point, was I just a bit too obscure there for my own good?! (I think I met similar re. Secret Army being "remade" - as in " Allo-Allo ")

I think the berets badge give/gave it away ? As well as the location, Earlston and date 1944 etc. as I have the 24th WD so know where they were when.

I had a similar "instance" just the other day on the "uniform" thread, where "unidentified" Napoleon-esk era 9th Lancers pictures seemed to be being variously attributed so that they either "belonged" to France or to the Brits.

http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/39362-military-style-the-best-uniforms-in-history/page-4#entry698140

When it "came down to it though" they seemed to be pretty closely modeled on one another (wonder if they would have been shot for wearing the enemy's uniform there ) - I think it looks like the Brits modeled theirs on the French

Thinking of Shaun's posts though #'s 29 & 30 - it would have been handy if they (during WW2) had kept with the obvious names and crests etc. on their tanks and if the crews etc. and brick-a-brac, dust and mud didn't almost always seem to "obscure" what was there.

I think an attempt of a map of losses there might help though one day, as local memory and photo collections might one day turn up that make it all a bit clearer somehow.

I haven't really tried to put "X's" on a map and anyhow some might have been moved almost immediately to some depo or some such for fixing where possible, or just collecting, out of the way. I have seen a few pics of wrecked tanks arrayed in Normandy (after their collection etc.) I think from memory the ordering there wasn't such that you could tell from batches etc. which set of tanks belonged / had belonged to whom.

[sharedmedia=gallery:images:28205]

I do on occasion search with this: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Tank+wreck+depot+in+Normandy+during+ww2&oq=Tank+wreck+depot+in+Normandy+during+ww2&aqs=chrome..69i57.1681j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8

Wrecked Sherman tanks and carriers being broken up at a British salvage dump in Normandy, 1 August 1944




I don't think that I "got very far though" trawling through all of these: M4 Sherman photo gallery:
http://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/usa/tanks/m4_sherman/

But again there was a pic of another of these depots there:
http://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/usa/tanks/m4_sherman/wrecked-us-m4-sherman-tanks-at-ordnance-depot-in-france-1945/

Wrecked US M4 Sherman Tanks at Ordnance Depot in France 1945

 

I found a few more pics along a similar vein last night, just here: http://histomil.com/viewtopic.php?t=3918&start=2810



(Above) The remains of Sherman tanks and carriers waiting to be broken up at a vehicle dump in Normandy, 1 August 1944. All salvageable parts have been removed and the remaining components are shipped back to Britain to be smelted down and used in the production of new vehicles. Matches to this one at the IWM: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205206145


(Below) A soldier of 10th Durham Light Infantry digs in close to a knocked-out German Tiger tank at Rauray, 28 June 1944.

Matches to this at the IWM: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205205959



(Below) Sherman tanks and other vehicles under repair at a REME depot in Normandy, 3 July 1944
matches to this one at the IWM : http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205205971
And the IWM has other examples of similar pics in their "related objects" section below this pic there.






(Above) Shame that there is on the whole a general lack of attribution or context for many (most?) of the pics there though. For example I am not sure if this is a picture anyone recognises? Or if there was ever a "story attached" to what happened there? :wink:

All the best,

Rm.

 

The Sherman is from Tunisia.


http://www.network54.com/Forum/47208/thread/1418014462/2/wrecked+Sherman

 

Thanks m Kenny!

Found this one of the same too from a different angle;
http://i.imgur.com/og6UqpB.jpg



And a few links which I won’t post to (as unrelated to this thread) on the “lollipopped Sherman in Tunisia” topic

As well as this thread on tank recovery repair vehicles here: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/52068-recovery-repair-vehicle-pictures/

All the best,

Rm.

 

I have look through the IWM images but it's quite limited online.
I've also searched out the army film unit quite a bit but couldn't really fined any archives to mention of obviously the IWM holds that responsibility.
I did find the names of a few of the photographers that were in the army film unit in Normandy so that's another search I will try sometime soon to see if that has any results bit of a long shot tho.
It does amaze me tho that if I give it several months between searches. When I search 24th Lancers pictures/photos/images almost every time there's something new pops up. Although quite often wrongly titled or like Rob said the Polish 24L

Rob you have to admit if all the tanks on the photos were as clearly marked as the photograph of Blimey Bill things would be so much easier. But I'm guessing the markings were cleaned up just for the photograph by the author.

Steve The hunt will go on.

 

I was browsing this the other day:
"Monty's Rhine Adventure: War and Peace September 1944 NW Europe"
By Patrick Delaforce. (Says - First published 2010 as "The Rhine Endeavour", republished in a renamed edition 2014)

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=qfslAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT283&lpg=PT283&dq=Rauray+24th+Lancers&source=bl&ots=Wnpa_fYYxK&sig=cuMe7PKND6-_fW8MeDU0Pc5UqW0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj2rd7VhPLKAhUEtxQKHafrDY4Q6AEIVjAJ#v=onepage&q=Rauray%2024th%20Lancers&f=false

And I noticed that it says that the 24th L had 49 tanks knocked out or badly disabled. Whereas in turn they (the 24th L) destroyed 11 and knocked out 20 Panther or MK IV tanks plus 10 SP guns.

It seems also to say in the paragraph just above that the 4/7th RDG and SRY had "about 20 tanks knocked out between them".

And that the 24th L "had to be disbanded on 23 July" - before it goes on to detail the 24th L's "49 tanks knocked out or badly disabled" loses.

- just wondering if anyone knows how many tanks the 24th L had at around 23rd July The impression I think I've got is that they (the 24th L) were able to replace most (or all?) of their losses and weren't disbanded on 23 July because "they had run out of tanks or men".

Is there an assessment of why the 24th L were disbanded? for example that differs from this idea now of the 24th L having been too depleted and i.e. having run out of tanks or men?

I've even seen hints that the fact that there was a Polish 24th L also equipped with tanks coming into the NWE theatre was confusing (i.e. for planners) - as well as the British army actually having too many tank (cavalry) regiments for their (presumed?) requirements at this point, so some re-organisation being called for there.

i.e. see also: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/57112-one-for-the-tankies/#entry664642

"Not just Regiment before Corps but Regiment before Regiment. When 24th Lancers were disbanded in late July 1944, there was nearly a mutiny with open talk about carrying on regardless. It was only the charismatic CO who made them see 'sense' but I know of several ex 24L, including one who became very senior in 11th Armoured Division, who wore their 24th Lancers cap badge until the end of hostilities and with only the occasional 'challenge'."

I note too that according to the 24th L WD - "During the period 24 – 30 July, the Regiment maintained its operational role."