Tom, Thanks for clarifying on the various lyric versions of DDD. Indeed the Canadians had a most difficult 18 months in Italy. thanks
Richard you are of course quite correct that the Canadiana had a very difficult time in Italy as did the whole of the 8th Army - not forgetting the US 5th Army as I recall the words of Churchill...... "The principal task of our Armies had been to draw off and contain the greatest number of Germans....this has been admirably fulfilled..." he goes on to point out that in August of '44 there were no fewer than 55 German divisions employed on the Mediterranean front......and at times I was convinced that they were all in front of my Tank...and I have no doubt that your Father felt exactly the same.... Cheers
Tom I was partly thinking of later years when veterans got to gether but Maybe there was a mutual respect thing there to that all would have recognized the value of the anothers efforts. Was there? did you think a rivalry between the groups: northwest europe, Meditarranean, far east or when the war was over did all that sort of melt away. I know my dad always spoke hightly of the 8th army guys and mentioned that many of them [rightly] felt they had done their fight and that it was somebdy elses turn; thinking, I guess of the 7th armoured and the 51th and 50th divisions being re-booted for D-day Normandy. I'm pretty sure the 1st CID thought this way when they were pulled form italy and headed for Holland in Feb'45. Less so for the 5th CAD becauses they had only been in the line seriously since a little before 'the D-day'
GPO's son After the war it was not "Done" to talk about your part of the war as it was called "swinging the lamp" - so it was all kept under wraps - only recently has the great interest in the war come about as people recognize that they have missed out on vital family history by this silence plus the fact that they didn't bother to ask when it was the time to ask all th questions which are no being asked via various forums and especially this one Hardly a week goes by without someone asking if they knew their grandfather in the 4th Blankshires who fought at Vinegar hill 300 hundred years ago -and so it goes on and on interspersed by wannabe Authors twisting the facts to suit their fictions in order to sell books - such as we see this week about the Bovvy Tiger et al Cheers
Tom we definetly part of that group in our house not too many questions were asked and information only offered rarely. I think most of what I knew came when dad was talking to the older neigbhours boys/men when they would come by and try to get him talking while they got hammered. He obliged on occasion and I listened from the base of the stairs. around this time I found the regiments History in the family library and read it through, as a 10 year old. So' yes you are absolutly right we did not do our bit to get the history. In our house we often felt there was some risk involved in getting our father to speak about the events of his war. He was always disturbed that he couldn't/didn't protect his men on 21st May when he lost most his gun crew. Matt
Bernie P, my biggest source of information on the Canadian campign in Italy, burned his uniform upon arrival back to Canada. He never set foot in a Legion or spoke about the war for the next 50 years. Maybe it takes that long to reconcile some of the memories or at least put them in perspective. Bernie now speaks quite openly and will answer any question from people with a genuine interest.
"Crossing The Melfa" by Lt Edward Perkins DSO Lt Perkins of the Lord Stathacona's Horse establishes the bridgehead with 3 Honey tanks and 13 Men to defend it. http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=crossing%20the%20melfa%20ww2&source=web&cd=8&ved=0CFkQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wlu.ca%2Flcmsds%2Fcmh%2Fback%2520issues%2FCMH%2Fvolume%25202%2Fissue%25202%2FPerkins%2520-%2520Crossing%2520the%2520Melfa%2520River.pdf&ei=8Y6OUcirMerh0QGJrICYBA&usg=AFQjCNEm94AvYSyfWA4hbBwNwCBR4YjnHw Matt
Having left a tour of the Gothic Line one is left with the impression that the DDay Dodgers have been dealt a lousy hand. Memorials are almost non existent save for a plaque on the Church of Saint Lorenzo in Strada ( to the Royal Canadian Regiment ) and a memorial to the Canadians at Point 204 at Tavullia. There is no mention of the 306 men of the 21st Tank Brigade, Royal Armoured Corps who died supporting 1st Canadian Infantry Division and 5th Canadian Armoured Division during the month long battle. Some 14,000 Allied soldiers died during the Battle of the Gothic line. This is in stark contrast to tours of Normandy and NW Europe where memorials are in abundance for future generations to pause and think about the sacrifices made by the ultimate generation.
One of the frustrations of the Italian Campaign but things are slowly improving. I was just south of Aquino last week looking at the 2 Cdn Inf Bde's attack on the Hitler line supported as they were by NIH. A horrible little battle. Regards FdeP
Frank now that you have reviewed the battlefield close up do you see why in the 1st CID were pretty bitter about the 13th corp (their words not mine) "dragging its feet" on the 23rd May. and imagine if that is possible 92 tons of HE falling in to the airport at Aquino in Just under 2 minutes. The first ever Victor Target called by the 1st CID FOO's on May23rd Matt
Matt. I do not think that it was XIII (BR) Corps dragging their feet but more of a failure to realise that throwing 78 BR Inf Div at Aquino was not going to be sufficient to sweep the Germans aside prior to the Canadian attack on its partof the Hitler Line. Whilst the British were consistently very cautious and did little without first committing enormous amounts of artillery prior to any assault, they were not helped on this occasion by the failure to take Piedmonte San Germano until 25 May 44 when the Poles took it. This Polish success removed German observation of that part of the Liri valley up to, and just beyond Aquino. It must have been very difficult for XIII (BR) Corps to fight with the enemy observing their supply lines and their right rear. 1 Cdn Inf Div took a thumping attacking the Hitler Line but that was as much do with the quality of the defensive position - it was quite something and well supported by the artillery observers in Piedmonte San Germano, as the failure of 78 BR Inf Div to protect their right flank by securing Aquino. Regards Frank
Hi Matt, Due to Montgomery's anathema toward the Churchill tank - even expressed to the PM - the Canadian Army Tank Brigade had the same problem as did 6th Guards Tank Brigade prior to D-Day. Unfortunately the Canadian ATB did not have the access to King George VI as did the Guards to stop Monty in his tracks Montgomery would not allow the Canadians to join 8th Army unless they agreed to give up its Churchills, which reluctantlly they did. One may wonder why, considering the outcome of the of the Brigade's Calgary Regiment experience at Dieppe. The Hitler Line May 23rd, 1944, after it was broken in one day by 1st Canadian Infantry Division supported by 25th Tank Brigade, Shermans of 5th Canadian Tank Brigade exploited the success by pushing the enemy back north as far as Valmontone where it harboured. On the 29th the North Irish Horse caught up with them harbouring in the same area.' While there conferences at various levels took place to examine aspects of the Hitler Line battle to consider ways to improve tank/infantry co-operation. The wireless operators of HQ Squadron and the three manning Squadron Leader's tanks - I was with B Squadron - led by our Signals Officers spent a whole day with our infantry counterparts. Two interesting that were discussed: 1. As the rear gong was frequently exposed to enemy fire, the need to create mike and headset to be attached to an a -b intercom Control Box long nough to be be passed to the "lee" side of the tank. The suggestion must have reached the riight ears as such an extension arrived quite soon afterwards. 2. How teed off were the Canadians having to go to war in Shermans instead of Churchills, and blaming the high-ups for not standing up against Montgomery. It was there that I heard that only two of the Calgary chaps were killed aboard the Churchills that landed at Dieppe. The Canadian tank crew losses on the Italian east coast leading up to the battle for Ortona had Churchills been deployed would have been sigificantly less in number according to the Canadians. Also, they were well aware of the 32 North Irish Horseman who were killed during the Hitler Line battle (two died later from wounds) less that 10% died aboard Churchills. I cannot recall how many were killed aboard the Shermans we were stuck with pending delivery of the Churchill Na 75s, but it as much higher percentage. One of the great tragedy of the war was the sending Churchills to battle in France mounting the totally inadequate 75mm guns for tank verus tank battles. 25th Tank Brigade only employed Na75s as mobile arrtillery! Gerry www.northirishhorse.net
Minden part of the problem of recognition as outlined by Randy is your own observation that 2nd Cdn Inf. bde were supported by the NIH - while in itself was perfectly correct is should also be noted that 142RAC and 51st RTR were also involved in that support mainly of 2nd Cdn Bde as leading bde but also for the rest of Cdn 1st Inf Division.....we had a similar set up for the Gothic Line where 21st TB were supporting - again 2nd Cdn Bde with the occasional forays with the Vandoos of 3rd bde and the H & P's of 1st bde As Randy points out - our 21st TB lost 306 men in that 28 day battle - which represented some 23% of the fighting members of the bde - with NOT ONE mention on the Cdn Corps memorial at Tavulia - which caused me to indulge in a running Battle with a Colonel of the BC Dragoons to no avail as he claimed that we were NOT members of the Cdn Corps - certainly not for rations but essentialy for fighting and use of their laundry etc - and which Randy corrected by placing a memorial to my comrades on the memorial at Tavulia- and copy of which hangs in my Kitchen in grateful thanks to Randy... Cheers
Gerry thanks for the info I had known that telephones on the back were operational before Chestefield but such as small thing as lengthening the lanyard must have indeed been a real life saver for the Infatntry men. Nor had I realized tha the 1st CAB were that angry at being sent in Shermans no doubt they knew first hand that the Churchill could save their crews as in Dieppe but were unable to function due to the terrain and beach Cobble. Nice for this thread to get such a bump on the eve of the anniverary of Chesterfield especially by men who were there. Perhaps while we have the attention of Gerry and Tom, I could ask question that I have been unable to get. We know the Ontario Regiment and Buffs were in Aquino on the 17th and were beaten up pretty badly by the Panzertruns. they lost 13 Shermans before withdrawning in the Morning. As Tom points out the entire 25th Brigade had huge losses on the 23rd with the NIH leading the way with the 2CIB. Here Goes. I have always been told that the tankers were unaware of the presence of the Panzertruns before the advance went in on the 23rd. was this a failure in information sharing or failure to report history correctly? I can't imagine that the 1st CAN Corp Hq would not have known about the placements if the 13th Corp had come upon them a few days earlier. Randy great that you were able to get the Plaque placed in honour of the 21st Brigade long overdue and a great effort by you well done. still want to see those pics. Frank I as said "their words". it was widely preceived that the 1st Can Corp was being pounded from the right flank all the way up the Liri Valley, in fact all the way to Frosinone and beyond. My Dad was with the advance oarty of the 17th Field Regimnet when he was hit by mortar fire on the May 29th. I will try to publish an after action report by the 17th fielf regiments CO from the period. If I can find it and have tiem tomorrow.
An interesting report Written by the Lt. Col Armstrong CO of the 17th Field Regiment RCA. He speaks about the deception and the committment to battle of the !st Can Corp and the 5th Canadian armed division. Armstrong was to died a 3 months later from injuries received in a vehicle over turn. Matt
View attachment WCab-307.htm Hi Son of GP We knew that Panzerturms were there hoping that the arty had knocked some of the out, which it did but not the one that took care of Ballyrashane - the B Sqn CO's - which I crewed - giving us the dubious legacy of being the first NIH tank to be knocked out. She was hit on the starboard side three times without penetrating the steel plated armour. After bailing out, sadly we found our driver Harry Jenkins almost severed in two by a slice of torn off track guard. Returning the next day to salvage anything we found, due to the clouds of dust thrown up by arty fire, a Panzerturm sitting about 30 yds or so directly in front of us - it had not been crewed. The crew of the one that hit us was less that 400 yards - found out later that its crew did not bale out and subsequently did more severe damage until being destroyed. Apropos to the comments about the the 6 pdrs, as will be seen in the attachment, a War Cabinet report on tank production, General Montgomery supported the 6-pdr gun. Sadly he did a volte-face priot to D-Day, hence no 6pdr mounted Churchills. the records show that he did not recognise that it was the six Churchills of KingForce that broke the German's final defences at the northern front of El Alamein. Instead of giving KF due credit he ordered its return to Cairo saying the Churchills were too slow to be of further value. Gerry
