87306 Robert Blair "Paddy" MAYNE, DSO & 3 Bars, MiD, Royal Ulster Rifles & 1 SAS

Six lines up on the bottom page It says that Paddy was a quiet man who hardly ever raised his voice... A Whole Lot Different to His Character Being Portrayed for the Last Two Evenings on BBC One. SAS Rogue Heroes at 9pm -10pm. Though Looking-Forward to the Next Four Remaining Programmes !

 

I remember hearing news of the Australian VC review, I think it was even discussed on the forum at the time.

• Australians to receive retrospective Victoria Crosses?
• https://www.naa.gov.au/learn/learning-resources/learning-resource-themes/war/world-war-i/research-report-john-simpson-kirkpatrick#:~:text=John Simpson Kirkpatrick (1812–1915,iconic figure in Australian history.

There're a few reasons why I'd say it's a shame that Col. Paddy didn't get a VC. One of them being that I'm distantly related to someone who knew him and who did get one, also not without its critics.
But I'm personally wary of modern day attempts to have medals awarded retrospectively, whether or not a good argument can be made now about the circumstances/criteria. And I often wonder about the motivations of those involved. Yes, many families and genuine admirers would be involved but a lot of it is still about politicians garnering support. Here in NI there is a whole raft of motivations not immediately obvious to 'outsiders'.
So it's a shame but his record speaks for itself surely.

This linked thread gives many examples of VC recommendations subsequently 'downgraded' during the process, incl a mention of Mayne.

• Victoria Crosses That Never Were....

There are also many examples spread across this forum of other gallantry recommendations being 'downgraded' because the recommendations were deemed, by those involved in the process incl the Awards Committee who oversaw criteria, not to have reached the required standard. Not many vociferous campaigns seen over these cases. And, I have to say, after having transcribed so many citations, some of that blame could be put on the authors of the recommendations. (I've been told that one particular CO was more reticent in initiating recommendations than others within his Brigade. It seems quite possible going by a cursory glance at the stats. So there are also awards that were never initiated but which should have been. Another case I was told of, involved a much-respected yet unconventional character who would've been put forward for a VC had he not been eventually located alive as a POW. Another friend of my father was told that his officers and WOs had worked out a deal - his recommendation for a gallantry award would be withdrawn while the likelihood of a C-M would also quietly disappear.)

It often seems to be forgotten or overlooked that during WW2 only VC/GC and Mentions could be awarded posthumously and by that I mean that the process could be started after death. Awards initiated before death occurred and gazetted afterwards were not a "posthumous awards", the process was merely concluded posthumously,

• eg 104182 Captain Anthony Revell EARDLEY-WILMOT, MC, 3 Irish Guards: 11/08/1944

If there was insufficient evidence for a VC to be awarded to a deceased serviceman, then a MiD was probably awarded in its stead and not much documentation survives for many of those cases to be 'reviewed in the interests of fairness'.

 

Von Poop,

In response to:

Long ago I did read several books about the SAS, some WW2 and some post-WW2. I knew of Paddy Mayne, minus any real recollection of him and his part in WW2 - until reading more in recent years. So, when, yesterday I found the Northern Ireland Assembly debate - in 2008 - on a quick read I thought it would be of interest here.

I do like to astonish people though.

 

Are there any Special Air Service V.C. awards?
I recall that there had been some form of campaign /appeal to have a V.C. awarded to Laba Laba for his actions at Mirbat.

 

Good overview.

There seem to have been a few informal considerations or 'house rules' for want of a better word, such as 'a DSO for a junior officer would mean he just missed out on a VC' etc which may or may not be true and cannot be substantiated.

Also agree on the quality of the write-up. When I read some citations, it is clear they were written skilfully, while others are just a bit meh, and you have to wonder how the award happened/not wonder why it was downgraded. See e.g. Lieutenant McGinlay’s DSO for an example of the latter. With more effort by Major Holden in writing it up, this could have been a VC (compare to Gardner - Gardner, Philip John VC - Lewisham War Memorials).

All the best

Andreas

 

Agree about poor standards of citations making one wonder how they ever got through. But then there was a war on, so I'm also surprised that officers had the time.

However, for the British awards there is IMO a clear boundary between BEF awards and the rest of the war. BEF's were clearly rushed, for whatever reasons: many not having more than a sentence or two; others with multiple individuals named on the same sheet, ie only one general description of events.

Instructions were even sent out as late as 1944, at the start of the campaign in NWE, detailing how to correctly complete recommendations. It still mustn't have have been read by some COs.


With regard to DSOs in particular, it's also quite a predictable pattern for CO's to get at least one; so often, in fact, that whenever an officer in command of a battalion for a decent period of time didn't get one ... it might make one wonder.

Other DSOs stick out for different reasons, the rank of recipient in particular. Not usually considered for Lts, so circumstances must've been exceptional, eg

• 104106 Captain Hugh Everard Joseph DORMER, DSO, 2 Irish Guards & SOE: 01/08/1944
• A Lt awarded a DSO for the Bou, also downgraded from VC; a Guardsman in same battalion was awarded the VC - 138640 Colin David Carelton KENNARD, DSO, 1 Irish Guards

 

Yes, I see the DSO very similar to the Ritterkreuz (most people seem to think the VC is, but that's wrong in my view). DSOs could be received for bravery in the field, or for just doing a solid command job over time. For more junior ranks it was usually bravery. The Ritterkreuz you could get for solid command performance as well, no bravery required. The VC/GC is 100% bravery. Quite a difference.

What I don't really get is the distinction for the 'solid command performance' DSO and the OBE?

All the best

Andreas

 

That downgrade really makes me dislike Anderson.

All the best

Andreas

 

Anders Lassen is, apparently, the only member of the British SAS to be awarded the VC.....just one, that's quite remarkable IMHO.

I don't know about anyone else, but I was expecting something like this........especially since the release of Rogue Warriors.

Paddy Mayne: The SAS hero denied a Victoria Cross by faceless bureaucrats

 

And another one........

SAS expert: US and Australia honour historic heroes, why can't UK do same for Paddy Mayne?

 

Being one of only 7 men, as far as I can find, to receive DSO and 3 bars during ww2 is already incredible achievement. Even if there are some I missed it is already very exclusive club to be in.

 

Thanks. It's an award that you can really only appreciate with at least reading the citation (you don't need to do that for the VC, normally, it is normally clear that it is awarded for some suicidal bravery), and an understanding of the context. There certainly have been very questionable D.S.O. awards, and very questionable downgrades of them (see above).

What’s with all the DSOs?

The one that befuddles me is the OBE for combat command achievements. Why not a DSO or bar?

All the best

Andreas

 

Wartime humour. Also the rear of this cutting.

 

RAF Waddington's main, large, briefing room, is called.......The Nettleton room, named after Sqn Ldr John Nettleton VC.

 

Something I stumbled across on eBay today. A replica set of medallic awards for Paddy Mayne:

Lt Col. Robert Blair Mayne DSO+ 3Bars 1 Special Air Service facsimile Medal Set. | eBay

 

And from Lord Ashcroft:

 

Thanks to a new member's post elsewhere I am posting a biography from: War Years Remembered Museum,
Newtownards, Northern Ireland:

Now the biography: SAS WW2 war hero Lt Col. Mayne – Military Grave Restorer

 

Step up fellas, step up!

Today's generation have much to aspire too



Always remember, never forget,

Jim.

P.S. TalkSport radio have live commentary. First test just kicked off.