British losses March, 5th 1940 Zeurange

Discussion in '1940' started by Maginotlineatwar, Nov 2, 2012.

  1. Dear Sirs,
    as a German author I am researching the combat operations of the German 95th. Infantry Division. Its my first post here, I know, and already I have a question...

    On March, 5th 1940 the unit attacked a British outpost in a forest near the French town of Zeurange and took 16 prisoners. They also claim approximately 20 killed British soldiers. Now, these numbers are usually exaggerated and therefore I checked the cwgc website and found 3 dead of the Duke of Cornwall regiment of which the prisoners came.

    Now, my problem is that while I am familiar with the German organisation on that day, I can not caim to know anything about the British and therefore have no clue if maybe other soldiers from other units listed as KIA on the cwgc website for that day might have been in the area.

    I would much appreciate if somebody could help me to get a complete list (or at least the number) of those British soldiers killed during this attack.

    If you have any questions please ask.

    Thanks a lot and best regards,
    Martin
     
  2. BrianM59

    BrianM59 Senior Member

    Martin -I had a moment and a quick look at the CGWC website - your three Duke of Cornwall's men are there, but other casualties from that day are almost all buried in the UK with a couple of exceptions, one of whom, from the RASC is buried in Dieppe. That's not a foolproof search and you could widen the dates to a while after to take in 'died of wounds' - or someone with access to the Duke of Cornwalls' and other relevant War Diaries may come along....
     
  3. Hi Brian,
    thank you for your fast reply!

    Having done quite a bit of research for the German casualties I know exactely what you mean. However I had to learn from my own research that the further I widen the dates the more likely I get soldiers killed in another engagement. From the 5th to the 7th however no other but those three show up.
    If somebody could have a look at the war diary that would be exceptionally helpful. As you may know German records on the regimental level and below have almost all been destroyed, in some cases even the diaries of the division. In the case of the German 95th ID the records before March 1940 are almost completely burned and only one regimental diary remains.

    It must be wonderful to be able to work with near complete records.

    Thanks!
    Martin
     
  4. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Give me an hour and I will have an answer for you from the the Battalion and Brigade war diaries.
     
  5. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Hold Tight.....You are going to like all this :D
     
  6. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

  7. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    4jonboy likes this.
  8. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

  9. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

  10. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

  11. Drew:
    I'm speechless! This is so great! All that detail, thats so, well ok, I'm so impressed my English is failing me.
    Thank you very much!!

    What really gets me is the fact that the Germans exaggerated enemy losses tenfold while the British number is spot on. One dead German. I know he got a decent burial and was therefore easily recovered after the war.

    I will have a detailed look into these files tomorrow. Looking now on my Ipod which is far from being suited for such a task. I might have a question or two because I am not familiar with all abbreviations.

    Its great to know that such info still exists and is being shared, not very likely in a German forum.

    Thanks again, you really made my day!!!!
    Martin
     
  12. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    No probs-Glad to help :)

    Are you familiar with the area and where positions were etc? Some of the files I have contain maps and sketch maps which show BEF positions. These will take some time to find though if you are interested.
     
  13. You are making fun of me, are you not? Why on earth would I not be interested in maps and sketch maps? Please, if you can, any further information would be very helpful indeed.
    I own copies or original files of all that was to be found on the above mentioned division. For the entire timeframe Oktober 39 to July 1940 which I concern myself with a total of two maps and three sketch maps were all that I could find.

    Say, those photos that you post here, they are from the original files in the British archives? I'm asking because here in Germany in the Bundesarchiv Freiburg its strictly forbidden to use a camera or scanner.

    Please take your time, your help already is far beyond what I had hoped for.

    Martin
     
  14. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Martin, Drew never jokes about the 1940 campaign !:)

    The British National Archive actually has camera stands so there is certainly no discouragement of photographing for research. If you were intending to reproduce images in a commercial publication then you might need to check further.

    If you need any help transcribing the handwritten entries, just ask. I know it's not as difficult as for an Englishman reading Sütterlin but it's not always clear.
     
  15. Martin, Drew never jokes about the 1940 campaign !:)

    The British National Archive actually has camera stands so there is certainly no discouragement of photographing for research. If you were intending to reproduce images in a commercial publication then you might need to check further.

    If you need any help transcribing the handwritten entries, just ask. I know it's not as difficult as for an Englishman reading Sütterlin but it's not always clear.

    :) Darn, this really is a great forum. Thank you very much for your offer!

    And the archive has camera stands...:( German archives suck.

    No, I´m not going to reproduce these reports, but you can bet they will be quoted quite a bit!;)

    On that last scan in handwriting I read:
    Slight Snow. Raid on Hartbusch wood. 2 dead. I injured and 16 missing. 10InfBde.O.O No.13 issued

    Is that correct? O.O. being operation order or some such?
     
  16. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I think that your reading of the entry in the 10th Infantry Brigade diary is entirely correct and 'O.O.' does indeed indicate 'Operational Order'.

    There really isn't much detail in the Brigade diary at all. The weather recieves more attention than anything else.
     
  17. Thank you Rich!

    I do have another question. On the second-to-last photo it says:
    14 O.Rs. 2 D.C.L.I and 2 signallers 1 R.W.K were missing.

    What is the meaning of "O.Rs" and "R.W.K"?
     
  18. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    "O.R.s" is "Other Ranks" - non officers - and "1 RWK" is 1st Battalion (Queen's Own) Royal West Kent Regiment
     
  19. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    2 DCLI handed over to the RWK's.

    I'll try and find the maps later in the week for you-I know there's a sketch map in the 2 Norfolks Diary but I recall a proper printed map with BEF locations marked on it.
     

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