Downplaying Russia's Role

Discussion in 'The Eastern Front' started by Zhukov, Jan 5, 2005.

  1. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    actually, stalin was a human being.

    Of course he was, so are you, so am I.

    Stalin was a murdering dictator......just a bit different.

    you're propaganda victim, poor boy...

    of yours possibly!
     
  2. tovarisch

    tovarisch Discharged

    Commenting on the original thread-starting post, I'm actually inclined to say that type of thing at times, but you've got to keep objective as often as you can. I mean, the popular point of view is that the Rooskies won it, you can't get around that, but Stalin was a right plonker ad he killed millions of his own people, and the Germans were just doing their duty, and, and, and, and.... I just get too caught up in rage when such a discussion pops up somewhere, and if I say what I want to say, I'll probably get banned, and that won't do anybody any good.

    I say the Allies won it, with the USSR contributing an immense amount. The tactics of the Soviets can be debated infinitely but that doen't change the fact that the war in Europe was mostly won by the Soviet Union. (I AM NOT saying that D-Day didn't have an influence, or Italy, or Greece or anywhere else, and the efforts of the Allied forces were an imense asset in the war against the Third Reich, along with Lend-Lease and so on). I mean, just look at the colour of the flag over the Reichstag in May 1945. Oh, shoot, there I go again.

    I also say, stop bickering about who won it already. People get into fights about his stuff, and it's just plain history in the end. History is subjective to different opinions snd theories. They may conflict, they may not. They may be obscured by the government, they may not. Rows can be fun sometimes, granted, but on a constant everyday basis... Let's be friends already. At least on the forum.
     
  3. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Tovarisch nice sentiments about the bickering, but pointing out that this thread was started 5 yrs ago. Many of those who initiated the debate are no longer active on the forum. The last post before yours was 4 yrs ago...
     
  4. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    [groan]Ah, the joys of zombie threads![/groan]
     
  5. tovarisch

    tovarisch Discharged

    Yeah, I uncovered this a bit too late :) Too bad I wasn't around when this kicked off.

    So Zhukov was discharged immediately then?
     
  6. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Sadly 'Stalin' got deleted - making his posts unsearchable - real shame as some of them were an absolute hoot.
     
  7. tovarisch

    tovarisch Discharged

    Stalin, you say :) I tried to befriend him a while back lol. Both Stalin and Zhukov were Russian :) ololo no they weren't Stalin was Georgian :D I mean the forum members. Did it ever occur to you that they might have been the same bloke reregistered under a different username? :)
     
  8. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Ah this thread harks back to the days when it was nigh on impossible to keep a thread going in the"Eastern Front" forum without it descending into a farce!
     
  9. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    You're giving true and honest farces a bad name, Gott!

    Tovarish, you unearthed this disgraceful thing, now here's a shovel for you and don't come bak till you have re-buried it properly :D

    [​IMG]
     
  10. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Stalin, you say :) I tried to befriend him a while back lol. Both Stalin and Zhukov were Russian :) ololo no they weren't Stalin was Georgian :D I mean the forum members. Did it ever occur to you that they might have been the same bloke reregistered under a different username? :)

    Hi Tovarisch,

    I was around then. He was a flamer and it became impossible to have a cool debate.

    This is what I meant in my post to you about those who went over the top and only had one point of view - his..theirs..........................!

    We had another one who was one eyed Japanese.

    His best punchline and the quote is near this:
    The Chinese in Nanking etc were only killed (executed) because they refused to do what they were told.

    Cheers

    Geoff
     
  11. slaphead

    slaphead very occasional visitor

    To Za and Gotthard.
    Since this thread is kind of redundant in that it became too polarised etc, is there a better one where the debate continues in a more considered and sensible way?
     
  12. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Za and Gotthard? Well, he's one of the oligoi while I am one of the polloi :D

    And what debate?
     
  13. slaphead

    slaphead very occasional visitor

    I should have asked the above question to Spidge too since he was on the forum in 2006 too.

    Stepping mildly off toppic here...
    Hoi Za!
    oligoi and polloi?
    It would apear this is now something to do with American healthcare reforms. Da? :D
    (last paragraph) Daily Kos: Fleeing Abroad for Health Care

    Either that or the Russian front has moved to Austin Texas
    "Oligoi always takes the initiative to help its clients to look positively towards change and advancement by figuring out new technologies and services that revitalize and restructure their processes." - from the Oligoi dot com web site
    Wha???? Huh??? Dont you just hate companies that have the word "Solutions" after their name???
     
  14. PeterG

    PeterG Senior Member

    * Russian movies up until only very recently (even though some still follow this tradition today) had to be historically accurate. For many of Zhukov’s movies (about him or mentioning him), he even was on the credits list, because he wanted to ensure that everything was done correctly. Russian war movies are not Hollywood movies! They are great to watch in addition to books. Filmmakers knew that the Soviet government could even jail someone who would dare to deviate from what was on record. I believe that the movie Patton, doesn’t quite follow that tradition. And as for “Saving Private Ryan”, well, I didn’t finish watching it, but I could clearly see why some of the British veterans hated it.
    Welcome to the boards, Zhukov! I hope that we have somthing to learn from you about the war and that we, in turn, can open your eyes to how history is treated in democracies.

    As for your claim that Soviet movies had to be historically accurate, I had to read it twice as the first time I thought that perhaps there was some hidden irony or joke. It is quite possible, of course, that you do sincerely believe that all those Soviet films depicted the truth; in which case I can only marvel at how successful propaganda can be.

    Let me first tell you how we regard films in the West. Primarily they are made for entertainment; some are true, for example Battle of the River Plate or Theirs is the Glory (a reconstruction of the Arnehm operation), and some are pure fiction, for example The Guns of Navarone which was based on a novel. But the ones that are fiction, or the ones that perhaps show a popular film star winning the war, do not claim to be true nor is their production controlled by the government in any way.

    In contrast, take the Russian film Pitsi (retitled The Vow in the West), based on a supposedly true vow which Stalin made to the dying Lenin. Aside from being based on a lie, the film is almost as rich in propaganda as the Nazi film Triumph of the Will, particularly in the scene where Stalin (played by Mikheil Gelovani) descends from the sky to an adoring and near hysterical crowd who thank him for having saved Russia. And do you really believe that in the Fall of Berlin Stalin flew into Berlin within hours of the Red Flag going up and was surrounded by adoring Red Army soldiers? For the record, he never set foot in Berlin in his life.

    Hollywood films may show John Wayne storming ahead, but no Western film to my knowledge shows either Churchill or Roosevelt at the head of exhausted troops. If they ever did attempt such an absurdity they would be laughed at.

    You did, however, say one thing which is unfortunately true: "Film makers knew that the Soviet government could even jail someone who would dare to deviate from what was on record." The irony is that what was on record was decided by the Soviet government, which ultimately meant Stalin; truth came a poor second.
     
  15. Heimbrent

    Heimbrent Well-Known Member

    Welcome to the boards, Zhukov!

    You aware of the fact that this guy/gal was last active in 2005?
     
    dbf likes this.
  16. PeterG

    PeterG Senior Member

    No, I wasn't. I happened to see that Slaphead had posted today. In any event, the Internet is practically eternal and my post may be of some use to future readers. :)
     
  17. slaphead

    slaphead very occasional visitor

    Ahhh there I go again. Creating Mayhem and confusion where ever I go! :rolleyes:;)

    (Has anyone seen my specs? They were here a minute ago) :D :rolleyes:
     
  18. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    No, I wasn't. I happened to see that Slaphead had posted today. In any event, the Internet is practically eternal and my post may be of some use to future readers. :)

    Peter, Peter, what little Göbbels told you that particular lie? Two months ago Geocities closed, and all websites based on it were simply wiped from the face of the net. Even yesterday I was reviewing my favourites list and deleting entry after entry due to the object being "Not Found"...

    Ephemera, thy name is Internet!
     
  19. PeterG

    PeterG Senior Member

  20. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    Commenting on the original thread-starting post, I'm actually inclined to say that type of thing at times, but you've got to keep objective as often as you can. I mean, the popular point of view is that the Rooskies won it, you can't get around that, but Stalin was a right plonker ad he killed millions of his own people, and the Germans were just doing their duty, and, and, and, and.... I just get too caught up in rage when such a discussion pops up somewhere, and if I say what I want to say, I'll probably get banned, and that won't do anybody any good.

    I say the Allies won it, with the USSR contributing an immense amount. The tactics of the Soviets can be debated infinitely but that doen't change the fact that the war in Europe was mostly won by the Soviet Union. (I AM NOT saying that D-Day didn't have an influence, or Italy, or Greece or anywhere else, and the efforts of the Allied forces were an imense asset in the war against the Third Reich, along with Lend-Lease and so on). I mean, just look at the colour of the flag over the Reichstag in May 1945. Oh, shoot, there I go again.

    I also say, stop bickering about who won it already. People get into fights about his stuff, and it's just plain history in the end. History is subjective to different opinions snd theories. They may conflict, they may not. They may be obscured by the government, they may not. Rows can be fun sometimes, granted, but on a constant everyday basis... Let's be friends already. At least on the forum.


    Tovarisch, I don't think that you'll get a lot of disagreement over your sentiments, even from flag-waving American such as myself.

    The only disagreement you would get from me is to change this sentence
    I say the Allies won it, with the USSR contributing an immense amount.

    to this
    I say the Allies won it, with the USSR contributing an immense amount of human lives.

    Half of Soviet prewar adult male population out of around 26 million killed is a rather unavoidable number when discussing wartime contributions.
     

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