Unit 731

Discussion in 'War Against Japan' started by Cynical, Aug 8, 2021.

  1. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Yes any thing jap or nazi attrocity wise is alway a route for the deny brigade
     
  2. Colonel Sanders arrived aboard the USS Sturgess at Yokohama in September of 1945 , with orders to meet with and interview "Japanese believed to be concerned with research into and/or actual employment of biological warfare."

    Somehow , which was not explained , "Japan's information network had found out that Sanders would be on board , and that he would be in charge of investigating Japan's biological warfare activities ." He was met as he disembarked by Naito Ryoichi , "the number-two man in Ishii's research laboratory in Tokyo". Interviewed later , Sanders commented that "he seemed to have had a photograph of me , and he said that he was my interpreter."

    Unit 731 Testimony , page 94-95

    "America wanted Ishii , Ishii's group , and the emperor protected. More than that , it wanted secrecy and exclusivity. The Soviets pressed to bring them all to trial , so that the secrets America had obtained from the Japanese could be made available to everyone (especially them). America won. And Unit 731 made its contribution to the Cold War. One might raise the question of what role the transfer of Japan's biological warfare potential to the U.S. played in pushing the Soviets to outdo America in nuclear capability."

    Unit 731 Testimony , page 115

    "Some copies of these reports were labeled as being destined for the "Commander in Chief", so there can be little doubt that the U.S. president was informed of events in Tokyo , including biological warfare intelligence coming into America's hands. In other words - to borrow the expression that the president himself made famous - on the decision not to prosecute members of Unit 731 , the buck stopped right at Harry Shippe Truman's desk."

    Unit 731 Testimony , page 113

    Obviously , Sanders was sent to Japan by order of the War Department in his capacity as a "highly regarded microbiologist" based at Camp Detrick and was obligated to report to , but not take orders from , General MacArthur. While it is true that by this MacArthur is historically linked to Unit 731 , any suggestion that he is to blame for giving Ishii a free pass is an over simplification and inherently false. It is crucial to remember that the Russians wanted to charge Hirohito with 'war crimes' and see that he is executed. MacArthur and US policy makers knew very well that unconditional surrender should never include the removal of the emperor.
     
  3. MarkN

    MarkN Well-Known Member

    Again you write the boldest statements of complete certainty, and again offer zero evidence to substantiate your words.

    There is NOTHING in the quotes you provide to support your opinion. There is NOTHING to evidence how MacArthur was involved, NOTHING to clear him from the issue, NOTHING to explain the exact nature of his involvement and when. Your quotes give us NOTHING to indicate the chronology of the decision-making nor who was responsible for the decisions and when beyond the top man making an common sense admission.

    I guess we'll just have to assume you have a strong opinion which cannot be supported and your attempts to defend MacArther's alleged involvement are just hollow soundbites.
     
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  4. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    loads on the internet about it
    cynical just google it

    Unit 731
     
  5. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    One almost wonders if the Op by Cynical is a ploy. After all Cynical has not logged on since the post.
     
  6. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    I am never keen on using book references as prime evidence, especially when they are selective. However since you have done so I would add:

    Unit 731 Testimony - page 109

    On 6 May 1947, Douglas MacArthur wrote to Washington DC that "additional data, possibly some statements from Ishii probably can be obtained by informing Japanese involved that information will be retained in intelligence channels and will not be employed as 'War Crimes' evidence."

    Tim
     
  7. I actually thought that I made an honest effort to fairly describe here , without wasting too much time and in brief , the conclusions presented by the book Unit 731 Testimony. I suggest that if you are really interested , go to the local library.

    My motivation to enter into this conversation , as I think I made clear , was to prevent this from turning into another example of revisionist history and just blame MacArthur. It is absolutely clear that the US Government , for the very good reasons that I tried to explain and will do so again , understood that any 'war crimes' trial involving Ishii would hand to the Soviets another potential weapon (in its infancy) that could be used against the US homeland. Furthermore , and something that maybe you only learn by reading books , as difficult as it already was , this would have made it impossible for the US to prevent the obvious legal implication that Hirohito was complicit.

    If you do not understand that painful conclusion , driven by situational awareness and geo politics , remember that the US had the Red Army and Stalin in mind.
     
  8. MarkN

    MarkN Well-Known Member

    Several books have been published on the subject, reams and reams of other text available on the internet too.

    In your opinion, why is the book Unit 731 Testimony to be upheld as the (sole) source of truth at the expense of other books narrating contradictory conclusions and containing "bullshit"?

    It was you who chose to introduce MacArthur into this thread. See post #11. You made a bold assertion of his alleged non-involvement despite no poster ever having accused him of such.

    Focus has only turned on MacArthur because of your intervention.

    Focus has remained on MacArthur because you have been incapable of supporting your assertions of certainty with a single shred of evidence.

    It is common sense that a decision of such import taken by a military commander would require higher political confirmation. The notion that MacArthur made such a decision is not exclusive to the knowledge that others higher in the chain subsequently endorsed that decision. The two are not mutually exclusive.

    You understand that hence your comment in post #16 "The fact is that Colonel Murray Sanders was sent to brief MacArthur on a decision that had already been made".

    You are selling a narrative that MacArthur's involvement was as a mere functionary implementing decisions already taken by others. You dismiss any suggestion that he was involved at an earlier decision making stage as an attempt to "alter history". Your repeated failure to substantiate those claims portrays you as the revisionist

    History is what events were.

    You have an interpretation of what those events were and have decided upon the history you wish to remember. No problem.

    But have the courtesy of not accusing others of altering history, or being revisionist, when all you offer is historically-worthless unsupported personal opinion. History is not what you want it to be because you shout the loudest.

    Then, when called out, try to deflect by changing the narrative into whether other posters here have the capacity to grasp common sense.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2021
  9. "Many of the scientists involved in Unit 731 went on to prominent careers in post-war politics, academia, business, and medicine. Some were arrested by Soviet forces and tried at the Khabarovsk War Crime Trials; others surrendered to the American Forces.
    On 6 May 1947, Douglas MacArthur, as Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces, wrote to Washington that "additional data, possibly some statements from Ishii probably can be obtained by informing Japanese involved that information will be retained in intelligence channels and will not be employed as 'War Crimes' evidence."[ The deal was concluded in 1948."

    Japanese spread Plague all over China, used Allied and American POWs

    Perhaps you failed to read the link that was offered by davidbfpo within which a quote from Unit 731 Testimony was fairly presented and repeated later in this thread. I was not the first one to mention MacArthur here , as you now see.
     
  10. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Capt Tutt

    was MacArthur a relative of yours by any chance?
     
  11. MarkN

    MarkN Well-Known Member

    Something mentionned on, and hidden behind, a link is not the same as being on this thread. I am sure several members read the texts at the links but none decided to bring MacArthur up directly in the thread. We will never know whether they would have done in the absence of your own intervention.

    Perhaps you failed to grasp that concept and as you now see you were indeed the first to mention MacArthur on this thread. It was indeed you that turned the involvement of MacArthur from hidden reading matter into a/the thread talking point, as you now see.
     
  12. "Something mentionned on, and hidden behind, a link is not the same as being on this thread."

    I am stunned that you , or anyone , would offer that anything was hidden behind a link as opposed to being on this thread. Your intellectual laziness and comment that "several members read the texts at the links" , is all I needed to read here.

    Why do you folks fail to grasp the obvious and now question who mentioned General MacArthur first?
     
  13. MarkN

    MarkN Well-Known Member

    On the subject of intellectual laziness, do you actually have any evidence whatsoever to substantiate your bold assertions? Anything at all? Was it laziness that led you to post quotes that misdirect rather than substantiate your claims, or where they a deliberate attempt to mislead?
     
  14. MacArthur is inevitably involved in any conversation regarding Unit 731 , the post war fate of Ishii Shiro , those involved in Unit 731 and the efforts to deprive the Soviets of this dangerous and uncontrollable weapons technology. Your statement that , "It is common sense that a decision of such import taken by a military commander would require higher political confirmation." states that MacArthur offered a decision rather than a recommendation.

    "The fact is that Colonel Murray Sanders was sent to brief MacArthur on a decision that had already been made. Maybe you should just remind yourself what Camp Detrick was (it was not Ft. Detrick at the time) and who ordered Col Sanders to approach Ishii Shiro."

    That is the 'bold statement " that you quite understandably have been unable or unwilling to grasp.

    Earlier in this thread , I pointed out that somehow , which was not explained (and as far as I know has never been explained) , that "Japan's information network had found out that Sanders would be on board , and that he would be *in charge of investigating Japan's biological warfare activities* ." He was met as he disembarked by Naito Ryoichi , "the number-two man in Ishii's research laboratory in Tokyo". Interviewed later , Sanders commented that "he seemed to have had a photograph of me , and he said that he was my interpreter."

    Later in this process , "Sanders approached General Douglas MacArthur saying: 'My recommendation is that we promise Naito that no one involved in BW will be prosecuted as war criminal.' The recommendation was readily accepted by MacArthur. By September, Sanders discovered that Unit 731 was involved in human experiments and he took the issue to MacArthur whose response was, 'We need more evidence. We can't simply act on that. Keep going. Ask more questions. And keep quiet about it'."

    "...on May 6, 1947, MacArthur sent this top secret cable to the U.S. War Department: “Experiments on humans were known. Confirmed by Ishii. If guaranteed immunity from war crimes, he can describe program in detail.”

    "The problem is that Fell was not of sufficient rank or influence to have granted Ishii and the others immunity. For this Fell needed to consult with Washington. Sheldon Harris describes a meeting held in Washington, D.C. on June 23, 1947 during which "representatives from the War, State, and Justice Departments ... 'informally agreed' to accept 'the recommendations of the C. in C., FEC [General MacArthur], and the Chief, Chemical Corps [General Alden Waitt], i.e. that all information obtained in this investigation would be held in intelligence channels and not used for 'War Crimes' programs".[4] Approval for this informal agreement was then kicked upstairs to the Joint Chiefs of Staff, which appears to have authorized the immunity promise. The problem here is that the Joint Chiefs do not approve political policies. Therefore, final authorization for immunity must have come from President Truman.[5] From this point on not a single former Japanese officer, doctor, or scientist who had been involved in biological or chemical weapons research in Manchuria would be prosecuted. Unit 731 was never even mentioned in the records of the Tokyo war crimes trials. It was as if the operations of Unit 731 had never happened."

    MacArthur felt that he was an expert on Japan and maybe even her culture , and he was absolutely correct that the Emperor would never survive a war crimes trial that involved Unit 731. It is my opinion that General MacArthur's first and in fact only priority was administering post war Japan , which in his mind had to include deep consideration as to how best to utilize the influences of Hirohito. This is where the discussion about unconditional surrender begins to evolve into a post war thought process.

    I leave the rest of this conversation to anyone that is stimulated to educate themselves.
     
  15. MarkN

    MarkN Well-Known Member

    And?

    I grasp it perfectly. It is a bold statement of your opinion. An opinion you have repeatedly failed to evidence. I grasp perfectly that you have decided to present your opinion as fact. I grasp perfectly that you are insulting my intelligence in thinking I am obliged to accept what you write is fact is indeed fact just because you say so.

    Present some evidence of you opinion and maybe I'll be able to give your opinion some credibility.

    No relevance and simply repeated as deliberate misdirection.

    As evidence goes, this contradicts and appears to refute entirely your opinion.

    If, as you claim, "Colonel Murray Sanders was sent to brief MacArthur on a decision that had already been made." why is he now making such recommendations for MacArthur to chew over? Surely, if Sanders was indeed sent with the remit as you claim, there is nothing for him to recommend and for MacArthur to ponder since it's all allegedly been decided.

    Why is MacArthur sending this proposal or recommendation if the decision had already - as you claim - been made and he has been briefed by Sanders that it has been made?

    And this, taken with your preceeding paragraph entirely undermines your bold statement.

    MacArthur sends telegram on 6 May...
    Washington starts process of accepting MacArthur's recommendations on 23 June...

    :rolleyes:

    And?


    Thank you for taking the time to post this evidence. You have done a fine job of demonstrating that MacArthur was indeed in the decision making process of granting immunity to some of the most vile war criminals. The ultimate decision to proceed with his recommendations, what he considered the correct thing to do, was naturally above his pay grade. Nevertheless, his actions propelled that choice, that decision, forward.

    Beggers belief why you seem so uptight and determined to boldly state the complete opposite.
     
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  16. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    I agree with Mark's analysis of your arguments. I was already becoming confused as to where your logic laid and would only add:
    Followed by:
    Tim
     
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  17. MarkN

    MarkN Well-Known Member

    Perhaps he's just playing with us. ;)

    Suck us in today then counter-punch tonight with other evidence saying something completely different.
     
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