MJ, A very interesting possibility. Pic 40 could show the small REME crew that came in on a RASC Hamilcar - not entirely sure. If so some could be the same men as seen in your Pic 41, as you suggest. Could never quite figure out where they were other than being in a field covered in molehills. It is hazy which is a strong indication it was taken March 24th. The glider to middle top background could be a Hamilcar. It is so blurry, however, that its orientation is hard to discern. Regards ...
All very interesting....... I think there is a v strong chance its a REME team, especially as they are also with the Jeep/Trailers and that is why Capt A has a copy of the two pictures. The black collar on one of the jackets is very distinctive, and the rather jaunty beret wearing Had a look at the original DZ image (hardcopy 3/12" x2/12" print and rescan!) but its not a lot of help. I do note that the middle machine appears to be closer to the camera, yet looks smaller than the (probable) Horsa in the left/top. Any chance that is a WACO, as it also seems to have a blunt nose and its smaller size? If so perhaps would help locating the picture?
MJ, Never thought of it being a Waco, but that is definitely a possibility to be considered. There were quite a few that came down on LZ 'R'. Regards ...
Yo, If my previous graphic calculations are correct we do know where CN 278 landed which was just west of the Kopenhof Div HQ, above Bislicher Str. Presumably the REME detachment was on CN 278 but they could have ended up elsewhere afterwards. Various possibilities I suppose. For example the burnt-out glider pic seems to indicate that they were on LZ 'R' at some point. Regards ...
Hi : ), I had previously assumed (potentially incorrectly) that the photograph with the tea and mess tins was taken somewhere behind Kopenhof between the farm and forest. I was never satisfied with this due to lack of evidence but if it is correct the object suspected as a Waco was assumed to be part of the debris from the burning glider southwest of the farm. The best piece of supporting evidence is one of the aerials does show a glider with tail removed in the same configuration as seen in the mess tins and tea photograph. Cee will probably confirm / disprove this with ease : ) There are some other files I can check but if we assume a REME detachment was on CN 278 2 names that may know more are Eric William Clitheroe of 22nd Independant Para and Sjt Whittall of 716 Company. Clitheroe mentions a jeep being present on his glider, but the landing location fits with the suspected 278 which is the glider suspected for Whittall due simply to how fast Whittall arrived at the RV compared to the other RASC parties. More to come after I check over some documents. Best Regards, SH
Hi, Yes there is a possibility that they (whoever they are) could be at or near the RASC ammo/supply dump established below Kopenhof Div HQ later in the afternoon of the 24th. This is the only aerial I have of that area as originally supplied by alberk. Don't think the burnt-out Devons glider next to the Leitgraben stream shows up here. It was pretty much burnt to the ground except for the remains of a jeep. Regards ...
I thought there were 2 burnt out gliders near the farm? The Devon’s one on the far side where you have it and one closer that crops up in the cine footage? (I might be miss remembering). The Glider top left is the one I had in mind as back of the Tea picture. Near the border of the 2 fields with the tail off, the RAF identify it as a Hamilcar but I don't think it is with the way the tail is sitting. The Hamilcar to the south of this picture was, for a while, my prime suspect for CN 278 however, this was superseded with the discovery of the photos we are currently discussing. The Jeep enigma has perplexed me for a while and might be something we need to resolve before we can progress who is on what glider aka where the REME were and who they were with. For background We know Gander refused passage on a HQ Hamilcar citing a jeep being present, and was transferred to the Horsa we have discussed elsewhere in great detail. Officially the RASC gliders were supposed to carry a Bren Gun Carrier Trailer and 16 Panniers. That said every account I have come across has some deviation from this manifest suggesting to me that the official manifests are somewhat different from the practical ones. This jeep is confusing me i can’t see 278 carrying a Bren, jeep, 2 trailers (one of which is the z trailer) and also 8 men and panniers of ammo and medical equipment that seems too much even if they were pushing the limit of what could be carried. What do you all think? There is also a chance the REME were split up and placed on 2 different gliders as one of the things 716 and others learnt from d day was the need for redundancy so glider manifests seem to be mirrored with other gliders in the 12. Maybe the 2 press were supposed to be on 278 but on Gander refusing they moved stuff around last minute? *i know we have spoken about the validity of some of what gander has said before but I find it important that there are 2 accounts not just his that mention jeep and Bren being on one of the HQ Hamilcars and it gives me enough confidence that a glider among the 12 did have both. BR SH
Hi, Sorry can't help with the Jeep enigma ... confuses me as well. A few features as I see them: Regards ...
Hi Cee, Agree with your plot above, Link below shows the plume from what I believe is the Burnt-Out Glider BO on your plan above. Pritty sure its the southern of the 2 darker areas of field. The object to the north is another glider that sits directly between the camera and the Burning Devons glider. LZ 'P' Scenes and Photos, Operation Varsity As above I'm not certain we have the correct location for the dug in REME group but there is a lot that lines up. BR, SH
Yo, Until I saw the later, clearer aerial provided by alberk I didn't realize the smaller plume to left in film still was actually the one closest to Bislicher Str. I thought originally it was the Devons glider below Kopenhof as it seemed smaller and farther away. I didn't realize initially there were two burning gliders just to the west of the HQ. As for the men in the photo, no idea who or where they are at the moment - could be REME as suggested previously ... ? Regards ...
Diersfordter Hamilcar There was a Hamilcar below Waco Farm near Diersfordter Str. No idea, however, if it was one of the RASC Hamilcars ... ? Regards ...
If it is they by my reckoning it would have to be 269 as the others are either accounted for or too damaged to be the one photographed here. 241 is a possible, it was going to R but ended up landing in the American area. I have no grid for it so just going on the fact it’s a good fit. BR SH
More on the potential REME chaps...............see number 88 on the typical REME Z Trailer with a handcart added, and the (surely) same soldiers as having their tea on the LZ. Not sure how the "88" insignia fits in but a bit more research found this ROYAL ELECTRICAL and MECHANICAL ENGINEERS - Introduction Markings: The REME Arm of Service Marking was a distinctive blue over yellow over red square. In the Infantry Division the following serial numbers were used. Headquarters REME white number 40 Infantry Brigade Workshop white number 88 Infantry Brigade Workshop white number 89 Infantry Brigade Workshop white number 90
Interesting stuff! Something else that has caught my eye is the man on the right appears to have no cap badge and neither does one of the 2 in the trench having tea. To go out on a bit of a limb with a hypothesis here (stand to be corrected) I wonder if they took them off prior to the operation and for some reason the badges for those on the REME HQ glider assumed to be 278 for now went missing. I’m not sure where I read this from but I did hear / read somewhere about concerns with the so named “commando order” that might have led to such a decision. Will correct this post if I’m found to be wildly off as I often am BR SH
SH, Just for clarification do you actually mean CN 271 rather than 241, which would be neat if true, as it was caught lifting off from RAF Woodbridge as you know ... Regards ...
