Warts & All.

Discussion in 'Historiography' started by von Poop, Jan 8, 2013.

  1. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    It has to be warts and all to be a serious discussion and research forum.
    I have absolutely no problem with a German or even specific SS sub-forum but the problem with the latter is always going to be admin/mods.
    Make it a free-fire zone and it will probably explode (or implode) and possibly attract:
    a) some undesireable members/posts.
    b) resentment from some members who perhaps might view the posts and feel compelled to comment in a manner that will result in continal slagging matches.

    I think what I am trying to say is the forum will be damned if we don't have such a sub-forum and damned if it is allowed to become a hotbed of hate and unreasonable views.
    Does it not become a decision for admin/mods (or even the site owner)?
    After all it is them who will ultimately have to moderate the sub-forum or deal with the potential problems of a free-fire zone.
  2. LesCM19

    LesCM19 "...lets rock!"

    Everyone should accept that contentious subjects with a tendency to drift off into an analysis of how a post was worded or even direct personal criticisms/innuendos will be moderated hard. Usually it is pulled back on-topic sooner or later; maybe posts after the following on from the point of divergence should be deleted en masse, otherwise it will run & run.
    Only 5-6 pages of Axis Units posts: no need for an SS section on this forum.
    Personally, I would hate to receive a PM from the mods stating "you can't say that here" but that's just me!:indexCAXI2NHN:
  3. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Forget about a separate subforum, chaps. It's not addressing the core issue.
    Not keen really.
    Don't want to compress a 'theme' into a subforum. Papering over a large-ish crack I fear.

    This goes right across the entire site. And it ain't a new thing.
    Mention the SS, an obviously integral part of WW2's story which might crop up in a variety of places, and the sensible historical discussion (& even the lighter chatter of an Internet forum) collapses, time after time.

    Here, I genuinely would be surprised if the fanboys ever got a foothold. This ain't the History Channel and I'll cheerfully stand by our site record of chasing out the actual loons.
    I say again - Naturally we'd continue to kill off any real Kurowski style hero-worship; Plenty of other forums on the web if you want to talk about the steely-eyed steel soldiers in their steely machines on the Steel steppes - but that stuff is not the issue.

    On almost all subjects this is a grown-up and chilled forum, but on the SS we consistently descend to the playroom. Not one full of the fanboy sort of kids, but in some ways perhaps their mirror opposite, and similarly disruptive

    It shouldn't be hard to keep an awareness of many facets of a historical theme in mind without allowing the particular facet under discussion to be swamped or cast aside.
    It just shouldn't, but apparently it often is.

    I don't recall Kershaw or Bullock ending every single page with a helpful reminder that Adolf was a Twat.
    They probably didn't think it was necessary, and cracked on with the detail.

    What I really care about re. the forum's 'culture' is the sort of thing Heimbrent references, where a specialist on the subject feels uncomfortable sharing knowledge, and can feel attacked for stating academic stuff based on strong research.
    That's just wrong. Surely?
    I'd never be surprised at the odd passing spike in disagreeableness when the SchutzStaffel's mentioned, but am so often depressed at how willing people can be to keep piling onto a thread with generalised repetition which has little or nothing to do with the particular specific in hand.

    The posts here seem to confirm that I, and the people I already knew about, are far from alone in thinking there's been a real problem. I slept on the first post overnight, but eventually thought it's about bleedin' time we let some fresh air in and actually discussed a leading WW2T 'Elephant in the room'.

    Awkward stuff, maybe, but there is an issue here.
    Roxy likes this.
  4. RosyRedd

    RosyRedd Senior Member

    How many people on here have a specialist knowledge like Heimbrent's?
  5. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    I have to work with German accounts of Normandy because I match them with UK accounts of the same actions. I admit I have an agenda (showing the huge 'kill ratios' are bunk) but I have to say the mentions of the SS here are so few and far between I fail to see why it is a problem.
    I think some are frightened we will end up going down the road where kids start posting silly questions like 'what was the number of Peipers Tiger' and other such nonsense.
    In my view the incidence of such banality is confined to the second tier of DG's and mainly gamer ones at that. AHF rarely gets that type of question nowdays and it specialises in the Axis side.

    Anyway let me wish a belated happy new year to my forum stalker.
    Despite not posting for over 2 years he still checks in here every few days to catch up on my contributions.
    One wonders what he is afraid I might mention..................
    Drew5233 likes this.
  6. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    There are a number of specialists and very knowledgeable members on this forum and we ought to be proud of that and not stifle discussion.
    "one mans meat is another mans poison"

    All I ask is, speak like you would like to be spoken too and treat members on an even keel.If it goes wobbly Admin/Mods will act democratically to sort the process.

  7. Gage

    Gage The Battle of Barking Creek

    We need to apply commonsense and we need to be able to discuss any WWII subject without a massive knee jerk reaction. If reading about or getting involved with such threads is upsetting or unsettling then leave alone. This isn't just trust of the Mods but of the members on here too (a lot of which are long standing),anything can be reported.
    Time to move forward for 2013.
  8. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I think it's the only thing lacking from this forum and whilst it's probably the best WW2 forum in the world (Certainly the 1940 section is :lol: ). I think it's a real SHAME that we don't get German members on here in the same numbers as other European countries.

    I remember helping one German member compile one of the best threads on this forum about some RAF chaps murdered in his home town and how we all congratulated him and then his swift departure once he revealed a relative was in the SS - How sad that some members felt it was OK to make him feel uncomfortable being here because of what one of his relatives was part of during WW2.

    Am I such a bad person because my relatives, certainly my race invented slavery? Are all Americans and Candians bad because of what they did to the Native Indians? Jews because of what they did to British Soldiers in Palestine? Talk about stereotyping ! Come on FFS surely we are better than that?

    Rarely do we get an insight into the otherside of the fence, do we not care? Doesn't it matter? I for one feel my 1940 research is only half the story because I never get to here Hans Bloggs, Rudolph Atkins or Oskar Smiths side of the story-How can we have a balance without it? I just think it's really sad and those that seek to get rid of genuine German members should take a look at themselves and ask themself why they are here- I suspect I'd choose a German member with a genuine story to share everytime over someone that chooses to inadvertantly or not dictate who should be here and who shouldn't if their posts on this forum are a genuine attempt to share a story about WW2.

    Despite what some folk think WE really are a poorer forum without these accounts.

    It's really no different to playground bullying and shame on them I say !

    <Can you tell I did a respect and diversity course today :D >
    alieneyes likes this.
  9. Roxy

    Roxy Senior Member

    This appears to be similar to SAD discussions on GWF: they generally degenerate. That said, there is almost always some valid information passed on.

    The SS were involved in WW2 and, consequently, worthy of discussion.

    I'm for warts! Moreover, I'm confident that the Mods will find and dispose of neo-nazis appropriately.

  10. Alan Allport

    Alan Allport Senior Member

    The Germans are the least of it.

    Some of the habitual comments about the Japanese (those people who 'never apologized for WWII' - all 127 million of them, apparently) are toe-curlingly embarrassing.

    Best, Alan
  11. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    My name’s Gary, and I have three books on my bookshelves specifically about the SS. I also have two KStN (German WE tables) for SS Panzer Pioneer units. The books were purchased many, many, moons ago in a long past adolescence, the KStN tables added more recently after happening across them.
    I’d seen the WW2T thread on SS PE class and had already seen the frankly bizarre precursor over on Axis History Forum that was eventually locked. I suspect those had made a few folks more wary of any similar themed discussion turning into a sequel of such oddness.
    I actually, I think, get both sides, assuming there is even an argument to be had. WW2Talk, as it says on the tin, has a British & Commonwealth focus. Curiously enough there aren’t that many similarly dedicated forums around, others tending to be very wide ranging with some dedicated sub-areas. Also WW2T has a good number of members and contributors to who the various German Armed Forces of 1939-45 are not an image from a black and white newsreel, but actual people who, way back when, were doing their very best to kill them. In some respects, therefore, it may not be the best place to electronically unveil an SS uniform or ask how many spoonful’s of porridge the former owner would eat before beginning their sit-up routine.
    Likewise, I get the proposition at the start of the thread that topics concerning the SS in particular and German forces in general are well within the overall context of the site. If you’re going to register to display and seek offers for particular vintage or reproduction items, then you’ve not really understood the reason for the forum, but if you’re wanting to legitimately ask about kit from the opposition, should you write a three paragraph prologue denouncing all political, racial and genetic ideologies associated with the regime and that you accept the horrific and extensive list of war crimes and those against humanity in general?
    The SS are bogeymen in so many respects. Legitimate authors have been very favourable in their estimations of SS fighting prowess which plays to the fascination with ‘elite’ bodies of troops (another perfectly legitimate area, but one which I can pull a face over), which gives them good press. That doesn’t by default mean the authors concerned have a bed cover and pillowcase set sporting swastika and runes. That there were very capable SS armoured units is as true as there were utter piles of human refuse in other SS units undertaking anti-partisan or execution duties, which don’t really have any parallel outside of (specifically) Nazi Germany.
    The fact that elements of those same armoured formations were equally capable of such actions, while those lesser lights in the higher numbered Divisions didn’t exactly prosper in those encounters where the opposition could actually shoot, is one of the dichotomies of the subject of the SS. Some folks I think like to view the SS as no better than its worst components, and those of course were a long way down the food chain, while other prefer to concentrate on the seven Panzer Divs as representing the ‘true SS’. That blurring of distinction between frontline units and those administering the Holocaust is most palpable when it comes to the SS, and it’s where the arguments about exonerating significant elements of the Nazi German war machine and state and population from knowledge of, and therefore guilt in, the largest and most methodical execution of non-combatants in human history have raged for the past sixty some years.
    I don’t quite get the fascination that SS does appear to attract. It was a relatively short-lived organisation, it was born from a peculiar (in all ways) ideology, had a very scratchy war record across the 38 Divisions raised, and used exactly the same range of vehicles, tanks and other weapons as the rest of the German land forces. But people do like to talk about them and I don’t see any immediate danger of WW2T becoming a hub of activity on the subject, as there are a wealth of other websites dedicated to all and sundry about the SS.
    Now, does anyone know the precise degree of elasticity in the 1944-45 era SS underpants (not to be confused with the early war equivalents, which were of course mainly derived from captured French civilian stocks, or the Ersatz types issued in the dark days of 1942)?
  12. idler

    idler GeneralList

    If reading about or getting involved with such threads is upsetting or unsettling then leave alone. This isn't just trust of the Mods but of the members on here too (a lot of which are long standing),anything can be reported.


    Warts all the way...
  13. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I know this probably includes we some days when I pull a pin out of one of my social hand grenades but perhaps the use of the Cooler could do with being used more often?
  14. At Home Dad (Returning)

    At Home Dad (Returning) Well-Known Member

    perhaps the use of the Cooler could do with being used more often?

    Who would you put in there? And for what reasons/opinions?

    SS "Fan Boys"? Or those who believe that SS membership is
    something to be thoroughly ashamed of rather than proud?

    and dont get me started on the Japs

  15. archivist

    archivist Well-Known Member


    Otherwise you can't have a balanced discussion/argument. By the way, my Dad was a refugee from the Germans and he never even suggested that I shouldn't take an interest in BOTH sides.
  16. arnhem44

    arnhem44 Member

    Excellent Gary.

    For me , the importance in this matter is the type of question or the form of information giving that matters.
    You can easily tell if the forum writer is showing just bad taste, is a complete moron, or is a junior lacking vital insight, or is thankfully an expert (amateur?) historian.

    If someone truely can give proper historical information (without signs of "admiration" and "jubilation") without generalisations then he/she is always respected here on this forum.

    So I don't see the problem of VonPoop (but then again I never faced the "severe" repercussions like he wants us to believe).

    Take it one at a time... no-one stops you from asking anything about the SS (but don't come with stupid quizzes like "can you guess who is this SS on the Photo and what atrocity he is currently undertaking ?").
  17. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Thought I'd bump this up ;)
  18. hutchie

    hutchie Dont tell him Pike!!

    We are all adults im more than happy to get involved with discussions about the ss but i believe we all focus on our own areas so we stick to that. Its our comfort zone
  19. Hesmond

    Hesmond Well-Known Member

    Its also worth rembering that not just SS units were responsible for atrocitys, the massacre here in Pas De Calais villege of Hesmond 14 farmers shot in September 1944 was carried out by a Luftwaffe Flack Arttilery unit,they were being used to dig trenches in the Contes villege area also run telephone lines ,the unit pulled out took them to the villege and shot them out of hand,this was one of a number of outrages in Pas De Calais in 1944 during the liberation period and none were performed by the SS.
  20. TriciaF

    TriciaF Junior Member

    Plus 2 massacres within 30km of us in SW France - members of the french resistance systematically shot by whichever german unit was in the area at the time.
    Just read this thread - I understand now why our Mod. corrected me recently for abbreviating Hitler's name.
    As a woman who grew up in the UK during the war I've always been almost obsessed by trying to understand how such things could have happened. And mainly to understand the mindset of the average german at that time. That has been the focus of my reading.
    Postwar there were many arguments and rows in our house - my younger sister, born after the war, is very defensive of Germany, studied there etc, much to my Dad's displeasure. She still visits a lot.
    So there's a variety of interests and experiences on here, we're not all blokes and chaps.
    And I'm also interested to know more about the SS. Who knows that there wouldn't have been a similar force made up of UK soldiers/police in any of the subsequent wars.

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