24th Lancers

Discussion in 'RAC & RTR' started by SDP, Feb 17, 2012.

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  1. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Fantastic pictures Bill,

    Well spotted! "i saw my fathers name on the list on page 4" !!!

    You've come to the right place for a bit of help I'm sure :)

    I assume: 'ARG for UK.X(iv)'

    Means: ARG – Armoured replacement group
    http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/23765-armoured-replacement-group/

    & the UK.X(iv) is on here:


    [sharedmedia=gallery:images:29356]

    But I may not be correct :unsure: it's never wise to assume too much!

    You might consider getting his tracer card from Bovington, i.e. as in:
    http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/37155-24th-lancers/page-3#entry684055

    And his army records too from Glasgow at some stage. My own granddad's took a bit less than a month to arrive, but the time you might have to wait can vary a bit I understand, depending on how busy they are there. And they are fantastically helpful to have.

    Having his army number from: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/37155-24th-lancers/page-4#entry697299

    Should be helpful, though oddly (?!) my own grandfather's army number was typographically incorrect on there:
    http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/37155-24th-lancers/page-3#entry666729

    As he was 7880500 not 7880506 as it said there ^_^

    Unfortunately right now, I don't know anything more about "William Duncan" but SDP (Steve) might be able to help you there.

    I hope that you have had a chance to read some of the other 24th Lancers threads? In case any of them trigger some memories of yours re. particular things your father might have said?

    Anyhow the very best of luck with all your research,

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
  2. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    Bill

    Good to see you here. Welcome.

    I'm currently away so have no access to my files. Give me a day or two.

    The badge is a very well worn 24L cap badge that appears to be of Firmin manufacture. Is it stamped on the back of the slider?

    The tank doesn't appear to be a Comet. Something earlier....possibly a Valentine?

    Do you have better scans of the cap badges on the photos? It looks like he was transferred to the RTR and, at first glance, their badge is very similar to 24L

    All for now
    Steve

    PS: just checked. Tank is definitely a Valentine. 24L were equipped with these relatively early in their life notably 1941 to about June 1942. This makes the location possibly Boroughbridge, Keldy Castle, or Whitby (all in Yorkshire) or Crowborough (Sussex).
     
  3. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    Bill

    I have only very limited information as follows:
    Army Number: 7948832
    Rank: Trooper
    Name: W Duncan
    Squadron: 'HQ Squadron'
    Trade: (not specified).

    This confirms the details shown on the Disbandment List mentioned in your earlier post.

    He is not mentioned by name in 'None Had Lances' (that is quite usual).

    Do you have any other information or photographs that would help such as his AB64 ?

    The most efficient way forwards, unless you already have significantly more information, would be to phone the Library at the Bovington Tank Museum and ask for a copy of his Tracer Card. I understand there is a £5 charge for this but, on the basis of my own experience and others, it is money very well spent (they are a charity so the fee is perfectly reasonable). Of course, the most comprehensive information will be in his Service Records which you can get from the MOD (search this forum for details).

    If you have any more questions, please just ask.

    Steve
     
  4. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Hi Steve,

    Re. "The badge is a very well worn 24L cap badge that appears to be of Firmin manufacture. Is it stamped on the back of the slider?"

    My own granddad's 24th Lancers badge does seem to have been in the wars, as regards the solder on the back. Is this a different make to the "Firmin manufacture" - do you happen to know :pipe:

    (I can scan a better image if necessary)

    [sharedmedia=gallery:images:28013]

    [sharedmedia=gallery:images:28012]

    I wasn't too sure either when the RAC (armoured fist) hat badge was in use, either prior to during or after someone's service in the 24th L. But my granddad also had one of these.


    http://ww2talk.com/forums/index.php...ttach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=146629


    BTW.... I was listening to this again the other night: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80017411

    Reginald Osgerby: British NCO served with 2nd Bn East Riding Yeomanry and 10th Bn Green Howards in GB, 1939-1942; served with 24th Lancers and with 2nd Fife and Forfar Yeomanry in GB and Normandy, 1942-1944

    Particularly REEL 2:

    REEL 2 Continues: training as part of 11th Armoured Div; arrival of Sherman tanks while training near Bridlington, 1943; transfer from fighting troop to reconnaissance troop; performance of Stuart tanks; role of Recce Troop; composition of crew of Stuart tank; move to Milford-on-Sea, Hants as part of 8th Armoured Bde; waterproofing tanks. Recollections of operations with 24th Lancers and 2nd Fife and Forfar Yeomanry, France, 6/1944-8/1944: arrival Arromanches, D- Day, 6/6/1944; landing from LST and move to concentration area, near Le Hamel; role commanding Recce Troop Stuart tank; incident of Canadian observation tank firing on tank with machine gun, St Leger, 8/6/1944; long period near Point 103, near St Pierre and Villers Bocage, 6/1944; role of picking up casualties from knocked out Shermans; role of Sherman Firefly tanks; danger of Hitler Youth with bazookas and snipers.

    REEL 3 Continues: nature of reconnaissance work; lack of contact with civilians; disbanding of 24 Lancers and transfer to B Sqdn, 2 Troop; 2nd Fife and Forfar Yeomanry, Putanges; return to a fighting troop; story of how his tank was knocked out by German anti-tank gun, Duderville, 29/8/1944; wounds sustained in action. Medical treatment received for wounds: how recuperating NCOs gained leave passes, Catterick, GB. Posting to Cairo, Egypt.

    Because there is some interesting 24th Lancer info in there.

    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80017411

    Particularly re. "landing from LST and move to concentration area, near Le Hamel; role commanding Recce Troop Stuart tank; incident of Canadian observation tank firing on tank with machine gun, St Leger, 8/6/1944; long period near Point 103, near St Pierre and Villers Bocage, 6/1944; role of picking up casualties from knocked out Shermans; role of Sherman Firefly tanks; danger of Hitler Youth with bazookas and snipers."

    (I'd heard it before, but "in context" it probably make a bit more sense to me now, after reading a few more things over the last year or so,)

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
  5. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    Rob

    24L badges were made by Firmin and Gaunt. Only badges with sliders have manufacturers back marks and not all sliders are marked. Your 24L badges are, by definition, not marked because they have loops not sliders. There are, fortunately, a number of 'tell-tales' that allow Firmin badges to be differentiated from Gaunt badges because they used subtly different die designs. If you send me a very close scan of the Crown, I will be able to tell you whether it's Firmin or Gaunt. The same rule applies to all 24L cap badges irrespective of metal type (white metal, silver, bronze, gilt and enamel) or fixing (slider, loops or broached).

    I must listen to Reg's IWM tape: he was a very good friend until he passed on just a few years ago. RIP.
     
    Ramiles likes this.
  6. sunnymede

    sunnymede New Member

    Hello SDP,

    No markings on the cap badge, it has a separate slider onto a tongue thats all, as for the scans, they are taken from small photogaphs however judging from the shape on the face photo I would say it was the fist type badge of the Royal Armoured Corps.

    And yes you are right onthe Valentine, been looking at pictures since you said.

    Thanks, Bill
     
  7. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    Bill

    The badge appears to be by Firmin (the tell tale is the separate vertical lines on the orb at the top of the crown! Gaunt badges had the lines abutting each other). Can only be 90% certain because of the wear.

    His photo with the RAC fist badge looks early in his Army career. Most probably when he was with a Training Regiment prior to being posted to the 24L but remember that some front line Regiments also used that badge. His Service Records and Tracer Card will tell you more.
     
  8. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Re. "I must listen to Reg's IWM tape: he was a very good friend until he passed on just a few years ago. RIP. " post#105 above.

    Yes, well worth it. Reg was in the Recce troop of the 24th L so the 2nd Reel in particular has some fascinating things.

    In post #15 above: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/37155-24th-lancers/#entry560860

    [​IMG]

    The officer in the centre, (SDP private pm) seems to be David "Flash" Voller, mentioned by Reg in his IWM audio at about 6 mins in.

    Who is also mentioned here for instance: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/352...yeomanry/page-4?hl=+david++voller#entry256659

    & http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/37155-24th-lancers/page-3#entry672620
    as well as: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/37155-24th-lancers/page-3#entry672810

    And "Flash Voller" seems to have been quite something to behold!

    So this I wonder might have been an exercise of a recce troop. Or an HQ section perhaps. I'm not sure if you recognise "Reginald Osgerby" perhaps in there too? Steve? But a few others that were there might also at some stage come to light ;)

    Shaun - I think that you said that there is a similar pic of your grandfather in what might look like the same place on a page in NHL? I'm not sure if many of those there are identified in that one?

    In the IWM audio, he talks about Martragny at about 14mins 30seconds in and talks about a first experience of contact with the enemy - which turned out to be being fired on by the Browning of a Canadian OP Sherman tank.

    It was only a little after this that they lost a Stuart tank there. They seem to have taken the crew of the Stuart back though, so by the sounds of it there were no KIA'd 24th Lancers in the Stuart tank there. There might have been some WIA's though.

    All the best,

    Rm.

    Ps. BTW, Voller gets another mention in another IWM aution account:

    John Buchanan: Buchanan, John C (Oral history) (19867)

    With quotes like : Voller was (Reel 8 circa 21.40) - "mad as a hatter" and "quite competitive, with his racing and messing about".
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2016
  9. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    Yes Rm there is a picture exactly the same in NHL must have been a day of some kind of importance? Actually on the next page it makes more sense because there is a picture of King George inspecting a crusader tank on the same day which explains the camera being there and them all looking rather smart. The picture was taken in Lakenheath suffolk 25th January 43 so I guess the same date for your photograph? Everyone is named in the photo 7 officers and 5 OR's.
    Also I agree regarding Williams cap badge looks like a Firmins to me because of the longer bottom on the letter E I can't enlarge the one u have Rm to make it out. But I have one of each which must have belonged to my gd.
     
  10. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    I think my grandfather's cap badge is a Gaunt - and it seems to have been a little battered about, with some prodigious soldiering on the hoops on the back.

    Re. the photo though, not "my photo" ;) - it came from an earlier post: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/37155-24th-lancers/#entry560860

    I think I may have seen the same or at least very similar in my gd's things though, albeit years ago. I seem to remember my nan had something framed, as well as something in a "roll".

    The 24th L WD has the following for around this date:

    21/1/43 The Regiment took part in a demonstration on the picking up of Infantry and Anti-tank guns by tanks.

    25/1/43 The Brigade was inspected by HM The King. His Majesty was shown some of the tanks of this Regiment and inspected them in detail. A telephone message was received by the Divisional Commander from Sir Alan Lacelles Private Secretary to HM The King, to say that His Majesty was graciously pleased to express his pleasure at the parades and demonstrations which he saw and would like all ranks to be informed of his pleasure.

    The following Special rder (sic) of the Day was received from the Commander, 29th Armoured Brigade.

    Special Order Of The Day By Brigadier O.L.Prior Palmer, Commander., 29th Armd Div.

    “I congratulate all ranks on their excellent turn out on the parade on the 25th Jan.

    I was particularly pleased at the bearing of all troops after a long wait in cold weather.

    I also wish to congratulate all vehicle crews and those who prepared the ground for the parade. It was evident that a great deal of hard work had been done, which made a very successful and imposing parade”.

    I was thinking about doing a quick list somewhere of those they "met" i.e. in similar ways inc. Churchill, Monty, Horrocks and Eisenhower etc. (Can you imagine all the "selfies" we'd have if they were all carrying iphones back then :lol: ) - shame so many of the "official" snaps are scattered to the 4 winds, though it is still nice to keep tracking more of them down, and trying if possible to identify some of those that were in them.... :pipe:

    Gd. often mentions being photographed and filmed and even sending snaps to-and-fro in mail, not just to my nan but to other relatives as well. Matching his description(s) though to whatever might turn up is possibly impossible now though, i.e. he might say "I'm sending you a snap of some of the people and their children in the house we are staying in" - "can you send one of Rob (my uncle) back" - so somewhere we probably have a photo of some French, Dutch or Germans from 70+ years ago... and they probably have a photo of my uncle in his school uniform... :) - with just something like "Rob" on the back :( But even identifying more of the people in http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/37155-24th-lancers/#entry560860
    would be great...

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2016
  11. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    SDP and Ramiles like this.
  12. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

  13. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    It is a lovely film (ref'ing here post #116 below - edit - I got a big confused :blush: ) - I guess the location where the camera crew filmed the tanks might be key.

    I did hazard that they might be replacements (for previously lost 24th L Shermans) being moved up by 24th L crews to where the rest of the regiment was. The 24th L Wardiary for that day having:

    Pt 103 - 13/6/44 The Regiment remained in observation on Pt 103 throughout the day in defence of the perimeter. There is nothing in particular to report.

    A note I made a while back at: The Battle for Tilly-sur-Seulles - Normandy - June 1944

    ...had:

    Tuesday 13th June 1944 - Seems like a quieter day for the 24th L on "Point 103", one of observation and perimeter guarding. The SRY (having been continuously in action since D-day) were drawn back to the Bayeux area until the 14th to replenish and re-equip. Meanwhile the 4/7th RDG supported the 6 and 9 Durham Light Infantry (151 Brigade) in an attack on the high ground dominating Tilly-sur-Seulles.

    I did look to see if there were perhaps any tactical markings on the tanks but had difficulty picking such out, hence my wondering if they were perhaps (tactically) unmarked replacements being moved/rushed to the 24th L's front.


     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
  14. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

  15. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    Yes excellent footage great shots of Bloody Mary, B squadron
    4th troop Lt Richard Leathers tank. I can only guess that Butcher Cumberland and from what I have decided my grandads tank the Black Prince were close by.

    Its a shame that I can't find Chris Mintofts email address because his grandad (Thomas Mintoft) was part of the crew of Bloody Mary
     
  16. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    The film that Ramiles refers to in post #113 is this one:

    30TH CORPS IN ACTION SOUTH OF BAYEUX (PART 3) [Allocated Title]

    From 1.11 minutes to the end, there is a stream of Shermans (noted as 24 Lancers?) in the caption notes, a Centaur and finally an Austin K5 3-tonner.

    Anyone recognise the location?

    regards

    Tom
     
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  17. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Tom, there's just a chance if you want a few others to see your question - that you might have to post a thread titled something like "Can anyone identify the road nr. Bayeux or Tilly Sur Seulles these tanks are passing down" - as the overlap of interests in "24th Lancer" titled threads and the area around there probably equates to Steve (SDP) ;-) And he's seen it now ;-)

    Edit: Thread started here: Nr. Bayeux or Tilly Sur Seulles - could anyone help further identify where these Sherman tanks are?
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
  18. STEPHEN ROPER

    STEPHEN ROPER Member

    My grandfather Ronald Roper (7897123)I think he was in A squadron but not 100% sure he was a tank commander in regiment 1943 till disbanded

    24th Lancers
     
  19. ZeroAlpha

    ZeroAlpha Member

    Dear All,
    Please forgive this intrusion. I'm trying to assist my wife research her grandfather, Wilfred Lilley, who was proud to have been a 24th Lancer. I can't yet locate him in my searches for Service records, but family verbal memory suggests he burned an arm in an accident and was evacuated from France, possibly in July '44.
    I do know that he was active in the Regimental Old Comrades until his death.
    Can anyone please help.
    Thanks.
    Ewan
     
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  20. STEPHEN ROPER

    STEPHEN ROPER Member

    Hello , my grandfather was too in the 24th Lancers and currently trying to look into his war record.

    From paperwork I have seen wilfred lilley service number was 7934266 he was transferred to 1st royal tank regiment on 31st 7 1944 , hope this helps a bit.

    Stephen Roper, my grandfather was corporal/Sargent Ronald Roper
     

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