Malmedy massacre - Whats your take?

An inexperienced guard getting the jitters?

SS orders to shoot the prisoners?

A PoW makes a break for it?

Or do you have another view?

As for me - The Juries still out.

Cheers
Andy

 

I doubt very much as if the real truth will ever come out. Stories have a way of changing depending as to who is telling it. Over a period of time stories get exaggerated. There is no question that it happened.. Bodies do not lie. A couple of hours after I was evacuated from the Malmedy Field hospital to Paris, I later heard that the entire field hospital was captured.. After 65 years I still cannot verify this.

 

The truth will come out. Danny Parker and Jens Westemeier spend 20 years going through every piece of paper in every archive, all the trial records, all the interviews, everything and Danny is completing his magnus opus: over 1200 pages about Peiper.

 

The truth will come out. Danny Parker and Jens Westemeier spend 20 years going through every piece of paper in every archive, all the trial records, all the interviews, everything and Danny is completing his magnus opus: over 1200 pages about Peiper.

That still won't lead to a 100% accurate answer, it all depends on how you interpret things. Missing minor details can greatly skew your results, not to mention someone will always have something to disprove what you said, the same may apply here.

In the end, the only ones who truly know are the ones who were their when it happened, after that biases and such will make it really hard to take them seriously.

 

Whats undeniable are the casualties. U.S. G.I.'s were shot in cold blood and the rest is simply who to blame if any.

 

Just wait for the book before you make comments about Danny missing minor details and misinterpreting

 

Long time no see TW. I have just made the connection!
I think the problem is that there are those who do not want to hear what actualy happened. No matter how many of his men testify they were told to 'get rid of the prisoner' there are those who still prefer the Honourable Soldier fiction.

 

I agree with Mehar (Elven6) The truth is very hard to be proved, and will probably never be known.

 

Until clear, definite, irrefutable proof shows up by Heaven send we will have to assume those soldiers died of boredom, right?

 

... But our principal wasnt around then ...

 

I agree with Mehar (Elven6) The truth is very hard to be proved, and will probably never be known.
Ah, so you're quite an expert in this matter with full access to all the archives, veterans and other sources?

 

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/axis-units/20116-ss-obersturmbannfuhrer-peiper-niave-desperate-suffering-battle-fatigue-4.html#post206018
I know very well, that there a different opinions about the massacre. But all at all, it was not to difficult to "solve" this atrocity. The national archives are full with material and next to the allready researched material by Weingartner and Bauserman (both superb books) we (Danny S. Parker and my person) located a lot of material, never used before.

Peiper was not at the crossroad during the massacre, but allready during the offensive he was well informed about the massacre and as the leader of the battlegroup he had to take over the responsibility of the acts of his men. Even worse, he did not interfere in any atrocities of his men and he didn´t care to much of the fate of any prisoners. This was well known inside his unit. Peipers units had a long atrocity "tradition", started in Russia. Even not guilty by shooting the prisoners by himself, Peiper was guilty, because he tolerated atrocities in his unit...and in his presence.

The order to shoot the prisoners at the crossroad was given by Poetschke through a messenger to Rumpf. Hering was an other SS leader at the spot. The shots of fleps started the massacre, the orders were already given before. Siptrott was a brave NCO, as an old "hase", he smelled the BS and as the tank commander he refused to initiate or to participate in the atrocity.

It was not to difficult for the American prosecutors to figure out the action at the crossroad. But this scene didn´t fit in the theorie of a big conspiricy by 6. Panzerarmee. So most of the interviews by Cpt Hoelzel and other interrogation officers were not used. For Ellis the trial was fare more than he could handle. Later the ss guys used different versions to confuse everything. Peiper gave from 1946 to 1976 in every interview a different version, so the confusion was perfect.

An other problem is, that you have a mix of totally innocent ss men and ss murderes at the Dachau trial, and all were in some way condemned. One has to understand, that innocent and honourable men like Rolf Reiser tried everything to bring their fellows out of the prison. Even by puzzling the story. So you also have to understand the hounarable Ralf Tiemann and the intention of his book, but he was also tricked and missled...and he wanted to belief. Different to Agte: He is falsing to create the holy St. Peiper and SS picture. His books are one reason, why time by time there are new discussions, massacre yes or no? There is no question at all: It was an atrocity. I have to admit, that I was also misled for my first Piper book published 1996.

I used in my second Peiper book (Zwischen Totenkopf und Ritterkreuz) from 2004 all the interrogation reports, beginning with 17.12.44. At that time, there was not yet any need to hide or puzzle the story. Danny S. Parker was able to locate all interogation reports (not only the ones from national archive, but also out of a private estate). Danny S. Parkers book will be published in 2006 by daCapo Press. He will be 100% accurate and his work will be fantastic...but no very big surprise for the massacre, you will find allways the same names near the crossroad: Poetschke, Rumpf, Sievers.

This historical correct version (i´m arrogant enough to insist, that my version is correct, but no fear, i´m not omniscient ) and my statements are fore sure very disappointing for all Peiper fans. Like most of the Peiper fans don´t want to belive that he was well aware about the holocaust and admired Himmler to the end. His handsome good looking very often didn´t fit with his character.

I hope this helps.
Greetings
Jens
2006 was a bit optimistic but Danny is in the progress of completing his book on Peiper to be published in late 2009.

 

Just wait for the book before you make comments about Danny missing minor details and misinterpreting

I'll definietly wait for it, just saying given such controversial subject matter anything can happen, I tend not to get my hopes very high, they are high but not very high.

Edit: Even the lady in your message posted above admits arrogance by stating their research is the definitive one,

This historical correct version (i´m arrogant enough to insist, that my version is correct, but no fear, i´m not omniscient )

Now, that doesn't mean it won't be correct, it could be correct in many ways. Then again it could also be wrong in many ways, double edged sword really.

 

Which lady?

 

Which lady?

Whoops, my bad. I thought the letter was signed "Jen" not "Jens", my mistake.

 

Nope, it's JenS. Danny's book is sceduled for late 2009 but Jens' book is available...

Amazon.com: Joachim Peiper: A Biography of Himmler's SS Commander: Jens Westemeier: Books

 

Why is an as yet unpublished book, that is penned some 68+ years after the event, now going to be the definative evaluation of what happened and not the many investigative bodies that have looked at the event at the time it occured?

Is it because now the eyewitnesses are all most likely dead and story can be adjusted to suit needs?

 

That question was already answered above...
know very well, that there a different opinions about the massacre. But all at all, it was not to difficult to "solve" this atrocity. The national archives are full with material and next to the allready researched material by Weingartner and Bauserman (both superb books) we (Danny S. Parker and my person) located a lot of material, never used before.
[...]
It was not to difficult for the American prosecutors to figure out the action at the crossroad. But this scene didn´t fit in the theorie of a big conspiricy by 6. Panzerarmee. So most of the interviews by Cpt Hoelzel and other interrogation officers were not used.
But Jens and Danny searched all trial records and all archives and contrary to authors like Agte (who has a pro-SS, neonazi agenda) they used all information they found to reconstruct the truth.

 

The book you linked me to by Jens doesn't seem to have gotten very good reviews, anyone on the forums had a chance to look through it? I'd always expect a review or two on a book like this to be criticizing it but Amazon alone has quite a few.

 

The book you linked me to by Jens doesn't seem to have gotten very good reviews, anyone on the forums had a chance to look through it? I'd always expect a review or two on a book like this to be criticizing it but Amazon alone has quite a few.

Lets be frank there is no middle ground here. There are those who will never accept the reality of Peiper and prefer to believe he was just a brave soldier doing his duty. The bad reviews seem to be written by those who think Agte's book is more balanced(!!!) and on Amazon UK the reviewer(who gave it 2) says:

"Peiper was tried for his alleged involvement in the Melmedy massacre, but later released because he was found not guilty"

That gives you some insight into those who dislike the book.