Malmedy massacre - Whats your take?

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Drew5233, Jun 25, 2009.

  1. Ruimteaapje

    Ruimteaapje Member

    And I'm guessing you do?
    Actually, yes, I do. That's exactly why I stated that the truth about Malmédy is perfectly clear.
    I believe that the SS involved in the massacres were just doing what they do best when they have unarmed soldiers or civilians in their custody, which is to machinegun them down in cold blood and write it off as a neccessity of war. That and the "I vas only following zee orders" thing. No, not all instances were handled as they were in the Battle of the Bulge, but the pattern of their actions in this sector was clear. They were just being themselves, instinct kicked in....

    They jury has rendered it's opinion a long time ago, in my opinion that is....
    Actually it was nothing like that. Prior to the Malmédy massacre Kampfgruppe Peiper captured close to 500 Americans. They can be seen in many photographs taken during the early hours of the Offensive. All were send to the rear and then to German POW camps. But the time scedule for the Kampfgruppe was very tight and Peiper had to push very hard to going. He was at the crossroads with his advance guard but moved on to reach Stavelot as quickly as possible, leaving behind some troopers to guard the pow's until they could be marched to the rear. So far so good, but a little later Poetschke (the commander of Peiper's tank regiment) drove my and issued the order to get rid of the pow's because the Kampgruppe was in no position to march them to the rear. That's why and when the massacre started. The American investigators soon realized what had happened and who were responsible. As early as December 17 1944 they started interrogating American survivors and German pow's and it wasn't too difficult to put one plus one together but their findings did not fit the bigger plan.
     
  2. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Actually, yes, I do. That's exactly why I stated that the truth about Malmédy is perfectly clear.

    Actually it was nothing like that. Prior to the Malmédy massacre Kampfgruppe Peiper captured close to 500 Americans. They can be seen in many photographs taken during the early hours of the Offensive. All were send to the rear and then to German POW camps. But the time scedule for the Kampfgruppe was very tight and Peiper had to push very hard to going. He was at the crossroads with his advance guard but moved on to reach Stavelot as quickly as possible, leaving behind some troopers to guard the pow's until they could be marched to the rear. So far so good, but a little later Poetschke (the commander of Peiper's tank regiment) drove my and issued the order to get rid of the pow's because the Kampgruppe was in no position to march them to the rear. That's why and when the massacre started. The American investigators soon realized what had happened and who were responsible. As early as December 17 1944 they started interrogating American survivors and German pow's and it wasn't too difficult to put one plus one together but their findings did not fit the bigger plan.


    That is a very plausable account of the massacre, but can you elaborate more on your comment, but their findings did not fit the bigger plan.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  3. Ruimteaapje

    Ruimteaapje Member

    The bigger plan was that the American prosecution made up the charges against the Leibstandarte. They invented that 6. SS-Panzerarmee had issued orders to the divisions not to take any prisoners. This enabled them to convict those guilty of war crimes but many innocent men as well.
     
  4. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Ruimteaapje,

    Thanks for the clarification.

    Nothing like trumped up evidence, which when found out, destroys any creditable evidence that may have been obtained.
    Guaranteed normally to produce a Not guilty verdict in a democratic system.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  5. Passchendaele_Baby

    Passchendaele_Baby Grandads Little Girl

  6. Wolfy

    Wolfy Member

    The bigger plan was that the American prosecution made up the charges against the Leibstandarte. They invented that 6. SS-Panzerarmee had issued orders to the divisions not to take any prisoners. This enabled them to convict those guilty of war crimes but many innocent men as well.

    I believe that the Leibstandarte received many disbanded Luftwaffe personnel and some former personnel from Luftwaffe Field divisions as replacements after the heavy losses they suffered in Normandy (circa 5,000 casualties).
     
  7. Ruimteaapje

    Ruimteaapje Member

    Indeed, but I fail to see the connection with the Malmédy trial
     
  8. Wolfy

    Wolfy Member

    Indeed, but I fail to see the connection with the Malmédy trial

    There is a connection, as this unit's personnel no longer had its 1939-1941 character. The division drafted some 2,500 men from disbanded Luftwaffe units after its heavy losses at Kharkov 1943. Post Normandy, the same thing occurred. The new men only received six or so weeks of training before they were committed into the Ardennes.

    Many of these weren't "old-school" SS men, but conscripts thrown into a new environment so many of them did not partake in the unit's atrocities in Russia. I doubt that they were accustomed to fighting battles "SS style". It is likely that there were innocent men mixed with the guilty at the trails, so it cannot be written off as an issue of "all guilty", or "we finally got those SS scoundrels, anyway".
     
  9. Ruimteaapje

    Ruimteaapje Member

    Those who were guilty of warcrimes were a mix of old hares and green recruits. This because the nco's were mainly old hares and they soon addapted the new boys to what you called "SS style" fighting and they were eager to learn. Hence the there's no connection between "Göring Spende" and the Malmédy trial.
     
    Za Rodinu likes this.
  10. Heimbrent

    Heimbrent Well-Known Member

    There is a connection, as this unit's personnel no longer had its 1939-1941 character.
    It has been proved in studies that "Osterfahrung" alone (that is serving on the Eastern front) was one factor, but it wasn't necessary for brutalisation or crimes.
     
  11. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    This because the nco's were mainly old hares and they soon addapted the new boys to what you called "SS style" fighting and they were eager to learn.

    Heck what NCOs for anyway, eh?
     
  12. Wolfy

    Wolfy Member

    This because the nco's were mainly old hares and they soon addapted the new boys to what you called "SS style" fighting and they were eager to learn.

    Impossible to prove or anything, but I think the ex airforce men would be more reluctant to kill civilians and POWs. Some of them may have disobeyed orders, since some US troops managed to escape.

    As for the NCOs, the Leibstandarte received some NCO/officer replacements from former Luftwaffe Field divisions since half of them were lost at Normandy
     
  13. Heimbrent

    Heimbrent Well-Known Member

    Heck what NCOs for anyway, eh?

    "Der Unteroffizier ist das Rückgrat der Armee."

    @Wolfy: Maybe you should do some reading before drawing conclusions on who's most likely to kill civilans and PWs etc.
     
  14. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    "Der Unteroffizier ist das Rückgrat der Armee."

    @Wolfy: Maybe you should do some reading before drawing conclusions on who's most likely to kill civilans and PWs etc.

    Would that be the equivalent of 'The Corporal is the Back Bone of the British Army' by any chance?

    :rolleyes:
     
  15. Wolfy

    Wolfy Member

    @Wolfy: Maybe you should do some reading before drawing conclusions on who's most likely to kill civilans and PWs etc.

    I remember a few years ago, I ran across a comment that was supposedly from a SSLAH veteran about this. He said something along that lines that if the old comrades did it, no one would have escaped. It was posted by one of the prominent historian posters on that forum.
     
  16. Heimbrent

    Heimbrent Well-Known Member

    No doubt a LAH vet could have said something along those lines - but that apparently doesn't make it so. Contemporary witnesses usually don't see the big picture, so you'd be better off reading some scientific historical studies.
     
  17. Wolfy

    Wolfy Member

    No doubt a LAH vet could have said something along those lines - but that apparently doesn't make it so. Contemporary witnesses usually don't see the big picture, so you'd be better off reading some scientific historical studies.

    This subject doesn't really interest me all that much. I'm just putting the possibility out there.
     
  18. Ruimteaapje

    Ruimteaapje Member

    I remember a few years ago, I ran across a comment that was supposedly from a SSLAH veteran about this. He said something along that lines that if the old comrades did it, no one would have escaped. It was posted by one of the prominent historian posters on that forum.
    Thank you, I was that "prominent historian poster" :D

    But that veteran was not referring to Luftwaffe replacements. It was the green boys from SS training and replacement units he was talking about. Also, what he said (if you refer to my interviews please do it right) was that these boys did commit the murders (no hesitation to kill at all) but some Americans survived because their murderers lacked experience.
     
  19. Wolfy

    Wolfy Member

    Thank you, I was that "prominent historian poster" :D

    You hang out with SS soldiers?

    *edit. Relax. I read that comment ages ago and it somehow registered.
     
  20. Ruimteaapje

    Ruimteaapje Member

    I interviewed quite a lot of them for my research, yes.
     

Share This Page